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Switch to Forum Live View More Government run amok for CAGW
3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 11:17AM #11
Bodean
Posts: 9,836

Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:44AM, Find1Answer wrote:


Thanks Bo    I actually agree with you on all points.      I think our only  disagreement is that I think they are all in on it and you think that only the lefties are.     





Well .. I would agree that all corporate interests, government interests, and associated cronies of all types are in on such types of corruption.  Be it the conglomerate that wants to take your land away to build a mall, or as in this case, a solar farm corp that wants to take your land away to build a solar farm, I don't dispute that they ALL engage in such.


I don't excuse the "right" for its part in general corruption.  Don't think I'm some sort of red koolaid drinker .. I"m not.  That's why I'm Libertarian, and not Republcian.


But for this particular issue, given the premise of CAGW, and knowing that it is primarily the far left that embraces such, and given that CA's government is for the most part left of center, and sympathetic to groups such as the "greens" .... for this particular issue, I have to lay it at the feet of the Left of Center crowd.


I'll gladly lay the blame of other corrupt practices, for example, the BP disaster, more towards the right of center crowd.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 12:06PM #12
Find1Answer
Posts: 7,385

if the Koch Brothers were into solar and wind farms rather than the manufacturer of chemicals and the use thereof wind farms and solar farms would be a rightist cause. if you insist on attributing politial ideology to it.     Hell Buffett is a opponent to the XL because his railroads are a mover of fuel if the pipeline is stalled.     Boone Pickens is a wind farmer.    You could say that natural gas was a leftist cause because that industry is a heavy hitter in the lobbying business against coal.   They are all self serving and more worried about their bottom line than anything else.

One of the nation’s largest refuse streams at 136 million tons a year, coal ash has fouled water supplies, endangered public health and threatened communities across the country. The EPA itself has recognized as many as 160 “damage” cases in which coal ash from ponds, landfills and other dumpsites have contaminated nearby aquifers, streams, rivers and lakes or tainted the air.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 1:54PM #13
Bodean
Posts: 9,836

Apr 13, 2012 -- 12:06PM, Find1Answer wrote:


if the Koch Brothers were into solar and wind farms rather than the manufacturer of chemicals and the use thereof wind farms and solar farms would be a rightist cause. if you insist on attributing politial ideology to it.     Hell Buffett is a opponent to the XL because his railroads are a mover of fuel if the pipeline is stalled.     Boone Pickens is a wind farmer.    You could say that natural gas was a leftist cause because that industry is a heavy hitter in the lobbying business against coal.   They are all self serving and more worried about their bottom line than anything else.





I agree Find .. they are all self interested ... and the "individual" involved could be left or right.  My major issue is not that these individuals work in their own self interests .... it's more that the California Government got involved to help them. ... when the CA govt., is chartered with looking out after the very folks they were helping to evict.


That's the real issue.


 


Did the OK or TX governments facilitate evicting people so TBoone could set up his little windmill farms??  [sincerely asking].

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 2:55PM #14
Find1Answer
Posts: 7,385

I don't know I will have to look into that.    I really do not know much about solar or wind farming to tell you the truth.    I like the idea of solar and wind and I think your thoughts about individual setups is very practical. 


I live on an old dairy farm 2 and half acres with two outbuildings.   the tricky part of that is that it is right in the middle of my town,  It is on Main Street in fact.   The farm is well over 150 years old and was there before the town grew to it's present boundaries.    I have heard from personal friends that work for the local government that my place is coveted by the land developers ie  local bankers, city councilmen and county commissioners.    During the last oil boom that ended during the financial crisis when housing was at a premium my friends told me that the powers to be felt my place would better serve as diversified housing.     We have another boom starting right now with the promise of thousands of workers moving in.      I assume because of this interest that is the reason that I get constant surveillance as to weed containment and any other code violation they can come up with.     for instance,  I want a couple of chickens for bug control in my garden but have been told I had better not even try it.     other people have chickens in town but I will probably not push it. I work my tail off keeping this place to code.    When my father died I had all sorts of good ole boys knocking at the door and since my mother died last year there has been more knocking.   I am under no illusion that these self servers will not try to bilk me out of my land.   

One of the nation’s largest refuse streams at 136 million tons a year, coal ash has fouled water supplies, endangered public health and threatened communities across the country. The EPA itself has recognized as many as 160 “damage” cases in which coal ash from ponds, landfills and other dumpsites have contaminated nearby aquifers, streams, rivers and lakes or tainted the air.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 3:26PM #15
paeng
Posts: 557

Apr 11, 2012 -- 9:55AM, Bodean wrote:


Are you implying that leftists don't engage in cronieism??


Sure their desire is to destroy capitalism, but they have to get to a point of power first, which will require that they operate within what exists first.




There's no such thing as leftist capitalism. What you mean is state capitalism.


Cronyism doesn't "destroy" capitalism. Rather, it's the result of capitalism. That is, one starts with accumulation of capital leading to the rise of robber barons, then acquisition of banks, then cooperation between the financial elite to take control of government, then government supporting them through long-term deregulation, resulting in tax cuts from government and easy credit from corporations to make sheeple happy and in return for the vote.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 3:49PM #16
paeng
Posts: 557

Apr 11, 2012 -- 9:56PM, Bodean wrote:


Ok Find ... I"ll drop the lefty thing.


I think it is wrong for Government to ever take another person's land they have paid for.  It doesn't matter what for, be it for a road, a business, a park, whatever.  I think it is enough that most people would cave to a reasonable cash offer that is at or even slightly above market.


The point of this thread is that the CA gov. is apparently in cahoots with a large solar farm corporation.  It make sense that solar would do well in the middle of the desert, but in order to build such, one needs a lot of land.  Accordingly, "neighbors" complained about certain houses being to code.  Turns out, the annonymous "neighbors" were none other than the solar company itself.  So .. the CA gov. goes in and demands these people bring their places up to code.  Being as most are poor, that just is not possilbe.  So, the government takes their land.


I have a lot of problems with all this.  As I've already mentioned, I disagree with the government ever taking a person's land away. .. even if they can't pay the taxes, if they've paid for the property, it is rightfully theirs.  Also high on my list, is that desert land is traditionally protected to limit the risk to rare fauna and flora.  You may remember several farms being shut down because it threatened the Kangaroo Rat.  Concern was also noted about illegals trampling on rare plants that are found nowhere else but in the area through which they crossed.  So .. there is an evironmental concern here as well.


Lastly ... this whole gov. grab of land is born out of the believe in the CAGW story, and as such, the need to create these large wind and solar farms.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for wind and solar, but my support is at the point of service, not in large god awful farms that kill bats and birds, and destroy other wildlife.  There is also the part about corporate control over the energy.  A subsidy to some Corporate Group allows them to bypass investment and risk, and thus "charge" for an energy source the public has already payed for.  Further, as defined by those who live in CA, for which I've not confirmed, patrons are forced to pay higher energy cost because of the inefficiency of the wind and solar system that exists on the corporate level.


Short story long ... get rid of the Global Warming story, and none of this above takes place. .. at least not in the wind and solar arena.




Your conclusion makes no sense because you are implicitly claiming that because corporations want large solar farms, then the "global warming story" isn't true. If the call was for smaller systems, then the story would be true?


I have a better suggestion: get rid not only of the worthless "lefty" references but also attempting to see connections between using larger systems and conclusions made by organizations like NAS regarding global warming. Stick to the most obvious point about this issue: smaller wind and solar systems are better than larger ones.



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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 4:16PM #17
Bodean
Posts: 9,836

Apr 13, 2012 -- 3:49PM, paeng wrote:


 


Your conclusion makes no sense because you are implicitly  .... claiming that because corporations want large solar farms, then the "global warming story" isn't true.  ... If the call was for smaller systems, then the story would be true?


I have a better suggestion: get rid not only of the worthless "lefty" references but also attempting to see connections between using larger systems and conclusions made by organizations like NAS regarding global warming. Stick to the most obvious point about this issue: smaller wind and solar systems are better than larger ones.





Dude ... before you come on here and insult me .. ya might want to try and get your story straight.


Show me where I said or implied that .... "claiming that because corporations want large solar farms, then the "global warming story" isn't true".  That's not what I said at all. .. and that is not what is happening.


The story is ....


Because of the claim of CAGW ... and that is all that it is .. a claim, and the propaganda campaign put together by the activists who support CAGW, as well as many in the Government who "accept" and support it, for political reasons [primarily to gain favor with constituents who oppose the use and profits associated with the use of fossil fuels], ... there is a call for Government to "aid" in the prescribed solutions put out by the activists who are perpetuating this CAGW story onto the world. ..... are ya with me??? .... ok ...


Included in the prescribed solutions is the increased use of Solar Energy and Wind Energy [which in itself is not a bad idea].  As we've seen, Governments are doling out Billions in Grants etc to help facilitate a transition to Solar and Wind.  In addition to the funding associated with facilitating this transition, ... there is this case in CA where the CA government is facilitating a land grab on the part of a group wanting to install a Solar Farm.  The CA gov.s role in this scheme is to evict people who cannot afford to make the necessary code adjustments.  This frees up the land for auction, such that the Solar Group can consilidate its holding and aquire a large enough piece of realstate to build and run their Solar Farm.


Thus ... the size ... be it a Solar Farm or not, has nothing to do with whether or not CAGW is true or false.  You tend to believe everything that comes out of NAS. ..hey .. that's your right .. I have no dispute.  I, based on a referenced knowledge of the subject, do not. ... [ie., you are taking someone's word for it .. I'm reading the research and deciding for myself.]


In contrast .. the size and scope, has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the CA Gov. is involved in this scheme.  Solar Panel Factories producing products for point of service installations do not require that the CA Gov evict poor souls off their long owned property simpley because their house is not up to "code".  In contrast ... a Large Solar Farm ... holds that potential, and apparently, that potential has been realized.


 


P.S. ... cronyism has nothing to do with Capitalism.  Cronyism is Cronyism .. and is prevalent in every system and interaction that exists.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 5:25AM #18
paeng
Posts: 557

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:16PM, Bodean wrote:


Dude ... before you come on here and insult me .. ya might want to try and get your story straight.


Show me where I said or implied that .... "claiming that because corporations want large solar farms, then the "global warming story" isn't true".  That's not what I said at all. .. and that is not what is happening.




Read your first post in this thread. There's your claim that corporations want such. What about the argument that the "global warming story" isn't true? Read post no. 9.


Want more evidence? Read the article that you just shared!



The story is ....


Because of the claim of CAGW ... and that is all that it is .. a claim, and the propaganda campaign put together by the activists who support CAGW, as well as many in the Government who "accept" and support it, for political reasons [primarily to gain favor with constituents who oppose the use and profits associated with the use of fossil fuels], ... there is a call for Government to "aid" in the prescribed solutions put out by the activists who are perpetuating this CAGW story onto the world. ..... are ya with me??? .... ok ...




Read the article that you just shared. Which companies are mentioned in the article? What term is used to refer to what they are doing?



Included in the prescribed solutions is the increased use of Solar Energy and Wind Energy [which in itself is not a bad idea].  As we've seen, Governments are doling out Billions in Grants etc to help facilitate a transition to Solar and Wind.  In addition to the funding associated with facilitating this transition, ... there is this case in CA where the CA government is facilitating a land grab on the part of a group wanting to install a Solar Farm.  The CA gov.s role in this scheme is to evict people who cannot afford to make the necessary code adjustments.  This frees up the land for auction, such that the Solar Group can consilidate its holding and aquire a large enough piece of realstate to build and run their Solar Farm.




Bodean, what you just shared in that article supports what I wrote. The only part that you haven't mentioned yet is that it's part of a "global warming story," which is also mentioned in the title thread and in your earlier messages.



Thus ... the size ... be it a Solar Farm or not, has nothing to do with whether or not CAGW is true or false.  You tend to believe everything that comes out of NAS. ..hey .. that's your right .. I have no dispute.  I, based on a referenced knowledge of the subject, do not. ... [ie., you are taking someone's word for it .. I'm reading the research and deciding for myself.]




Read second-to-the-last paragraph of message no. 9. My point has to do with that and not with my beliefs in the NAS.


For something more obvious, try the title of this thread.



In contrast .. the size and scope, has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the CA Gov. is involved in this scheme.  Solar Panel Factories producing products for point of service installations do not require that the CA Gov evict poor souls off their long owned property simpley because their house is not up to "code".  In contrast ... a Large Solar Farm ... holds that potential, and apparently, that potential has been realized.


 P.S. ... cronyism has nothing to do with Capitalism.  Cronyism is Cronyism .. and is prevalent in every system and interaction that exists.




The same problems took place for various forms of infrastructure development that had NOTHING to do with global warming. Given that, I'd say that what we have is a government not running amok for CAGW but for capitalism.


And your last point contradicts itself: if cronyism "is prevalent in every system and interaction that exists," then the claim that "cronyism has nothing to do with capitalism" is false.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 8:38AM #19
Bodean
Posts: 9,836

Paeng ...... you said ...


"because you are implicitly claiming that because corporations want large solar farms, then the "global warming story" isn't true."


 


That's total nonsense.  I've not implied or said anything to the like.


 


What I've implied, is  ... that since some people believe in the CAGW story, they mobile political forces to support large solar farms.


Totally different from what you're claiming I've implied.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 4:24PM #20
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Well Bo, those who observed your stances over the years can safely argue by Occam's razor that you follow the rule of being against anything you think "Leftists" are supporting. There is no reason for any impartial observer to handle a more complex model for your stances. It always boils down to this same ingredient and root element. Purely partisan...

tl;dr
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