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Switch to Forum Live View Helen Thomas Honored at PLO Event in Washington
6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 9:47AM #61
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

>>>>>>>> It is very hard to compare Helen Thomas with well known bigot like Israeli FM Lieberman.


>>>>>Especially since KSai's representation of what Lieberman was saying was NOT what was in the article, not at all.  I hope you read the article to see KSai was in error ! 


 


 The Israeli FM lives in occupied foreign land ( How shameless you have to be to do that? )


>>>>>NO:  it's 'disputed' territory.  There's a difference.  And since I don't offhand know exactly what 'area' (A, B, or C) he lives in, I'm sorry but I haven't enough information to decide if I want to feel he's "shameless"


Personally, I think  (some) Palestinians are "shameless" when they include Tel Aviv and Haifa in their 'map' of Palestine.  But since I never see you complain about *that*, I feel you're being 'one-sided'. 


 


and Helen Thomas is a towering figure in the US and did her job well for decades ( I think since the 50's she was assigned to the White house press core).


>>>>>It's funny how everyone who supports your views is so magnificent, LOL!  At least Helen Thomas was competent for many years:  she's been fully biased for many years, too. I will agree with you, that she was a better reporter than Findlay or McKinney the racist were legislators!


Helen's "Personal opinion" of Israeli policies is different than popular US perception of Israeli policies. But that was her PERSONAL opinion only.


>>>>>Nope!!  NO dodge on that one, BD!  She is a *REPORTER on POLITICS* - so even her 'personal opinions' - especially on THAT topic! - are not really those of a 'private citizen'.  NOR was this 'in private' - she was 'on the record'. 


 She did not spread hateful lies in her works.


>>>>>  I'm sorry that you refuse to understand 'the Jews control the White House' is both hateful and a lie.  That seems to mean you are certain as a non-Jew that you know what Jews believe and want, and what is hateful to Jews.  I just don't see that as very likely.  Especially when - so far as I know and I'm not asking because that's not permitted! - you aren't even an American yourself.


 


Israeli FM is well known for his opinions of native population.


>>>>It's been explained to you that my relatives and Rocket's are NOT 'imports' as you keep pretending.  So this 'native' vs 'colonists' stuff is just so much propaganda. 


 


I do not know of many civilized countries that elects such bigots into governments.


>>>>>He's not half a patch on the racist McKinney - or the idiot bigot who declaimed "I don't think an atheist can be a patriot"!  That was President Bush (the elder)......  Of course, some don't consider the US a civilized country.  Not even some Americans, lol!


Maybe that says a lot of Israeli "Main stream" ideologies.


>>>>> Or American!  I do not agree with you about this, no.


Which is troubling to say the least...


>>>>> I don't see why!  But then I don't find ONE politician's views to indicate 'mainstream' anything.  The USA is probably going to remain populated by 95% or more 'nominative' Christian individuals.  But it will only become 'a Christian nation' over the bodies of very very many people of all faiths - including many many American Christians dedicated to their faith AND their nation's Constitution.


Right now the Republican candidates are doing their best to present a very extreme and narrow representation of 'Christian' values as their platforms.  And that is probably the biggest reason I am willing to bet you US dollars that there will NOT be a Republican President next year.

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 10:47AM #62
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:46AM, BDboy wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 1:52PM, rangerken wrote:


The comment that Jews own the whitehouse has been made before and has always been ludicrous. I suppose those who dislike jews in general like to use that canard to bolster their opinion. And those who don't approve of our friendship with Israel use it as well. But the fact is that there simply aren't that many Jews in our country of over 300 million to control anything.



>>>>>>> I agree with the first part of your comment. Albeit there were Jewish people in various White House teams but there is NOTHING wrong with it.


LOL, and when I say 'That's mighty white of you' - perhaps you'll understand that there's SO!  nothing wrong with that, it should have gone without saying...?


I can think of quite a few Jews in the White house in last 15 years and they were not selected in their respective positions for being "Jewish" but for being good at what they did.


I'm glad you have some idea of how things are supposed to work around here..... 


For example, fund raising is important for any modern campaigns and people from Jewish background were selected for that job and they have done well.


Gee, that's really 'white' of ya!  Guess you figure those Jews are 'a credit to their race', huh? 


Those who do not agree with parts of zionist movements can speak about fanatic zionists but I cannot agree with attacking a whole religion.


And then there are those who just speak against *ALL* Zionism, and claim that's got nothing to do with how they feel about Jews....


I have seen quite a few Jewish people who went out of their ways to support 'just causes'.  Which included speaking up against Israeli policies and even US policies.


Well, you and they feel those were 'just causes'. 


 


Now going back to "Friendship with Israel". In politics there are no friends, there are only interests.


I'm glad you can be realistic.  That's how I see it as well. 


 


America does not have any economic or political interest in supporting Israel and it's descriminatory policies in the ME.


That's your OPINION, BDBoy.  Are you an economist or a student of American political goals?  And are you even an American (strictly on the idea that a people know their own wishes and goals best, nothing else!).    You realize that the large majority of Americans do not share such a view ?   (I'll introduce you to Occam's Razor in a bit....)


Oh, and I disagree that Israel's policies are all that 'discriminatory' - especially as compared with anyone else in the neighborhood.  Particularly the ones who screech the loudest.



 


During first part of world war ll America did little to stop genocidal Nazi regime in Germany and there are allegations that top US corporations even worked with that sadistic regime.


SO? We already knew that..... 


Which brings up the question of some influence of Israeli lobby in the US.


NOPE.  It brings *YOU* into the territory of hate speech, for making the heinously exaggerated and distorted 'comparison' of Israel to Nazi Germany.


EPIC FAIL.  You can now be cited as 'demonizing' the State of Israel, pissing on the ashes of 6 million Jews, and 6+ million more Roma, Poles, Russians, Greeks.....etc, etc, etc.


Goodwin's Law:  The discussion is now over and you are in disgrace.  Go sit in the corner, BDBoy.


 


There are many credible reports that Israelis have disproportionate influences on American politics and policies. (link not copied because it ticked off Leah!)


Oh, please!  That was an OPINION piece, not a 'report', from some Dutch blog.  Not a 'news source', and not exactly 'credible' - except perhaps to people who think it's OK to go around implying Israel is like Nazi Germany! 


 


"Does Israel control US foreign policy?"


Who else BUT the American people has a right to ask? 


There are valid concerns that, US is overtly biased towards Israel and lost credibility in international forum for siding with Israel when Israelis are practicing immoral policies.


There are concerns - whether they are valid or not is another story.  Whether Americans give a flying fig about 'lost credibility' in 'the international forum' is another story.  LOL - "In politics there are no friends" .  You said it, bud.


IS Israel actually practicing such 'immoral' policies as has been claimed?  I obviously don't believe it - I think a lot is hype, propaganda, and pure hypocrisy.


 


 For example, Israel was not questioned over its WMD projects but Iran is getting threats against it power plant which is alledgedly for peaceful purpose


What a pathetic and worthless 'example'!  First of all, Israel isn't a dgnatory to the pact:  Iran IS.  Second, Israel is a US ally:  Iran, otoh, has attacked 'US soil'( = Teheran embassy) and murdered US citizens (1979, remember?), holding them captive for over a year. 


 


(As per Iranian claim). Iran is not even near making an atom bomb and facing sanctions but Israel get away with much more.


Waaaaaah!  Waaaaah!  We should treat the people who sacked out embassy exactly as we treat our ally, yah sure! Interesting question - why don't you ask how a country with a segregated military fighting WW2 could elect a Black man as President?


So what gives? How a country which ignored genuine plight of Jewish people during first parts of world war ll can overtly side with unfair policies of Israel.




 


Maybe most Americans are not aware of how policies (Specifically foreign policies works in Washington) are formulated. 


Thanks for insisting that all those Americans who aren't opposed to close US/Israeli relations are either stupid or ignorant! 


 But that does not mean NRA, Israeli lobby, AARP, Saudi Arabia does not have any influence over US politics.


Ah, so *WHO* should decide how much 'influence' is good, and how much is 'too much'?  And HOW should they decide that?   



 


I am fine with people who are openly biased towards Israel.


I really do not believe that, or you'd see AIPAC as just another lobby group.  You don't. 


 But why deny it?


I haven't 'denied' that there is an 'Israel lobby' OR that it has some influence.  But that's not at all what Helen Thomas and others have been saying.  They have used words like 'own' and 'total control' - which is a completely different scenario.  And as RKen has stated, on the basis of numbers alone it is obviously ludicrous....


Which leads us to the 'disproportionate' part - who gets to decide such things?


What I am denying - emphatically! - is that there's anything 'untoward' about the FAR FROM 'TOTAL'!!! influence the 'Israel lobby' has.  I am denying the allegations made by another poster here that Jews 'have divided loyalties' as a matter of course.  And I am denying the insinuation that 'Jews all cooperate with one another to control the rest of us' - which is behind all this noise from bigots like Thomas.


There is virtually NO site where this 'Jewish influence' idea is not endorsed, which does not ALSO endorse 9/11 conspiracy garbage, whitewshing of Nazi crimes, and/or claims of 'Satanism' regarding the Jewish Talmud and/or Freemasonry.


I've tried to point that out many times.  But I guess some people really do not want to face the Truth......



 

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 4:32PM #63
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:46AM, BDboy wrote:


I am fine with people who are openly biased towards Israel.



I cannot understand a stance that tolerates, encourages bias.


It is anathema to truth, unless one believes in conflict as the ultimate truth...

tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 7:05PM #64
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

Chari, are you suggesting that Americans are biased?


Is 'bias' how you'd describe positive German regard for Americans?


 


If someone is my friend, they've proven to me that I can trust them - that's not 'bias', is it?

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 7:36PM #65
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 9, 2012 -- 7:05PM, LeahOne wrote:


Chari, are you suggesting that Americans are biased?


Is 'bias' how you'd describe positive German regard for Americans?



"No" to both. Being openly biased means that someone reduces himself to being a salesperson. This is not what whole peoples or nations do, but an individual's decision.



If someone is my friend, they've proven to me that I can trust them - that's not 'bias', is it?



No, the definition of bias is "deviation from the truth". If you can trust a person, then this is just the truth, not bias. oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bias?q...

tl;dr
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 8:28PM #66
Dostojevsky
Posts: 9,063

Quote:'


"Which brings up the question of some influence of Israeli lobby in the US.


NOPE.  It brings *YOU* into the territory of hate speech, for making the heinously exaggerated and distorted 'comparison' of Israel to Nazi Germany."


This is an old list - can't find a newer one.


In response to claims of a small Jewish population and large representation in US politics


Th list of names:www.jta.org/news/article/2008/11/05/1000...




NEW YORK (JTA)— The following is a list of the 44 Jewish members —13 senators and 31 representatives — who are serving in the 111th U.S. Congress, which convened in January 2009:


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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 10:36PM #67
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

The numbers don't mean an ever-loving thing absent some kind of 'agenda' being alleged.  Without the presumption of such an 'agenda', the numbers simply do not matter.


 


Dos, do you seriously think expect everyone to believe that Jewish people who run for office in the US are intending to represent the interests of *Israel*?


That certainly appears to be what you're alleging.  It wasn't true about JFK, that he was a RC *first* before he was an American.  And it hasn't been true of any of the Jewish politicians, either - not Kissinger, not Javits......   I suppose there MAY be a sleaze or so among the bunch - but they're an ordinary garden-variety sleaze.


I'm really getting very angered by all of your and BDBoy's continued slander of myself and 1.7 % of the American electorate as 'having divided loyalties' and so forth.  That's about the most disgusting personal attack I've ever been subjected to.


I keep waiting for you to pull the 'blood in the matzoh' one:  'tis the season, after all!

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 11:13PM #68
rangerken
Posts: 16,967

Dos, do you realize that one of the most important things about being an American is that what one's religion happens to be is not supposed to matter, and almost always does not matter? It's nice to know how many Jews we have in congress I suppose...but Dos, why should any of us give a damn????? I think we happen to have a Muslim in congress, and so what?


Trust me Dos, the Jews most certainly do NOT control our government, our congress, our courts, or our country. They DO contribute to science and industry and law beyond their proportions but that is a very GOOD thing, and that works to our country's advantage, so well done American Jews!!!!! And if othe countries are making life tough for their generally well educated and hard working Jews, and these men and women don't want to move to Israel, I say to them...come here...please!!!...we can always use more Jonas Salks and Leonard Bernsteins and Felix Frankfurters and Einsteins and Openheimers and officers like Army Generals Weyland and Stein and Admirals Bloch and Rickover, to name but a few of dozens, and so on... or First Sergeant Bernie Cohen who was my ranger company first sgt in my second year in Vietnam... and so forth, etc...


Get it, Dos????


It is because that we Americans for the most part don't give a damn what religion our fellow citizens follow, or don't follow, that we find comments like those by Helen Thomas so obnoxious. She's actually rather un-American besides being a thoroughly disgusting human being...in my opinion any way.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 11:59PM #69
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

Yes, we've had a couple of Muslims in Congress - and as American Muslims become more 'established' in communities across the nation, I'm certain there will be more.  To which I say "GREAT!" 


Politics - it's a game every group should play.  The marketplace of ideas can only benefit from a 'full spectrum' of possibilities, I feel.


Yanno, the Irish still pretty well run Boston and a lot of MA government - and I cannot recall the last time anyone bothered to make any noise about it.  If it really bothers someone, they run for office themselves. 

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 9:25AM #70
Dostojevsky
Posts: 9,063

Now all of a sudden numbers don't matter.. and we don't give a damn?


Quote:


'The comment that Jews own the whitehouse has been made before and has always been ludicrous. I suppose those who dislike jews in general like to use that canard to bolster their opinion. And those who don't approve of our friendship with Israel use it as well. But the fact is that there simply aren't that many Jews in our country of over 300 million to control anything.'


Now we come to accusations of dislike...don't approve -- its too tiresome. I only posted in response to the above and other posts that in proportion of the numbers stated, the number of  Jewish Senators appears much higher than from people of other nationalites. Simple. Yes they are gifted talented whatever but it is also job for the boys; now nothing new about that, its as old as the man himself.

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