Apr 10, 2012 -- 4:41PM, Miraj wrote:

Apr 10, 2012 -- 4:21PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Miraj

No compulsion in religion may be Allah's way, but it is not the way of the Islamists such as the Muslim Brotherhood (a.k.a. whatever we are calling them today - yesterday it was "nut jobs") and it has historically not been the way of Arab Muslim ruled areas where forced conversions were (and still are) commonplace. If you look at the two main contenders for most "Muslim" country, KSA and Iran you will find that compulsion in religion and forced conformity to "Islamic" standards is the rule, not the exception. 

"Forced conversions" (an oxymoron if there ever was one) are not commonplace in Arab ruled areas.  Between the two of us, you're the only one that calls Iran and the KSA "Islamic".

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:07PM, rangerken wrote:

The thing is both the KSA and Iran certainly do claim to be Islamic.

So does Pakistan. Her real name is Islamic Republic of Pakistan. USA has been friendly with both KSA and IRP. I see that USA has never complained about these countries being "Islamic". What is the problem with Egypt being "Islamic"?

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:07PM, rangerken wrote:

So if a Muslim says that neither is 'Islamic' then the obvious question is, what exactly is 'Islamic'?

An Islamic country is a country that upholds Islamic values; no corruption, no human rights abuses, is against murder, against killing of innocent persons, no torture, no imprisonment without trial, live in peace even with non-Muslims, be honest in politics, if you see a purse on a bench in a park, don't take it away (it does not belong to you), the owner will come back and take it away, have a welfare system for poor, sick and needy. This list is much longer. Suicide bombing is not part of it.  

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:07PM, rangerken wrote:

My position is that if a Muslim country says that it is 'Is;lamic' then it damn well IS 'Islamic' BUT, it defines 'Islamic' in its own way.

How does Pakistan define herself Islamic? I am sure this "Muslim country" says that it is "Islamic" and every other country is accepting it blindly without even trying to understand whether it is true or not. The same goes for suicide bombers. They are blindly accepted as Muslim when their act is not Islamic at all.

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:07PM, rangerken wrote:

And this is a great example of why political Islam most certaily does exist.

I see no sign of "political Islam" in any example in these countries. "Political Islam" is being defined in different ways because it does not exist in reality; only in peoples' imagination. Everyone can see the word "Islam" in it and Islam has been seen in all sorts of ways in the last few decades. Some see Islam in "Islamic", others in "Islamism". Some see it in "Islamist" and others in "Islamization". Some see it in "Islamic terrorists" and others in "Islamic terrorism". Strangely, many see Islam in even "unislamic". The list is always growing as the old labels lose their impact and new labels are invented. "Political Islam" is probably the latest brainwave. It is a brainwave of a secular politician for foreign consumption.  

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:07PM, rangerken wrote:

And how 'political Islam' operates does impact the politics of the whole, Middle East.

Without the 'political Judaism' there would be no birth of 'political Islam' in the whole of the Middle East. We had never even heard about it before 1948.

Ibn,

I am an expert in growing tomatoes. I really am. I can examine a tomato plant and tell you whether or not it received too little, too much or the right amount of water. I can tell if its roots are healthy or are being attacked by any of the fungi that assault tomato plant roots. I can examine the leaves and identify bacteria, fungal and pest caused damage. I can tell you none of this by examining tomato sauce in the can or tomato Ketchup in the bottle, though I can evaluate many important things about those products. I can tell that in the main they are made of tomatoes.

A discussion about political Islam is or should be very much like this. We can examine political Islam in its many forms and talk about each one. None of this tells us very much about Islam except that political Islam politicians and leaders say they draw their inspiration from Islam. Political Islam is the bottled or canned version of Islam just as tomato sauce and Ketchup is the bottled and canned version of tomatoes. As I said we can discuss political Islam and know that it is based on Islam but we cannot tell anything about Islam from an analysis of political Islam.

I hope that I explained myself clearly.

Habesor

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:45AM, habesor wrote:

Ibn,

I am an expert in growing tomatoes. I really am. I can examine a tomato plant and tell you whether or not it received too little, too much or the right amount of water. I can tell if its roots are healthy or are being attacked by any of the fungi that assault tomato plant roots. I can examine the leaves and identify bacteria, fungal and pest caused damage. I can tell you none of this by examining tomato sauce in the can or tomato Ketchup in the bottle, though I can evaluate many important things about those products. I can tell that in the main they are made of tomatoes.

Habesor,

We have something in common. I do buy tomato sauce and tomato ketchup as well as grow tomatoes. Without a label, you would not know that it is tomato sauce or tomato ketchup if you did not know tomatoes.  

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:45AM, habesor wrote:

A discussion about political Islam is or should be very much like this. We can examine political Islam in its many forms and talk about each one.

As I expected, when it comes to talking about "political Islam" it can have "many" forms. How many? Any number will fit the size as there is no limit to man's imagination. 

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:45AM, habesor wrote:

None of this tells us very much about Islam except that political Islam politicians and leaders say they draw their inspiration from Islam.

I can join politics and tell you that I draw my inspiration from Judaism. Would you blindly accept that I draw my inspiration from Judaism or would you care to verify it somehow?  

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:45AM, habesor wrote:

Political Islam is the bottled or canned version of Islam just as tomato sauce and Ketchup is the bottled and canned version of tomatoes.

But there is a big difference in your analogy; you are tomato expert but not Islam expert.

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:45AM, habesor wrote:

As I said we can discuss political Islam and know that it is based on Islam but we cannot tell anything about Islam from an analysis of political Islam.

Exactly! I say that by linking it to Islam, without knowing Islam, people do not know whether it is "political Islam" or "political Judaism".

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:45AM, habesor wrote:

I hope that I explained myself clearly.

I like to give credit where the credit is due. It was an original try.

From my point of view, I know quite a lot about tomatoes to know the difference when I am given a jar full of mango chutney with a tomato sauce label on.

Now if that does not tell anyone that it is Islam that is being talked about on MENP board then I may as well call my religion "Your Islam" or "MENP Islam". The definition given here will fit any size.

Let's call it "McIslam", as in McDonald's catchy jingle "Have it your way, have it your way!".

Of course, that not only makes it unIslamic, it's also unreligion.