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Switch to Forum Live View "Political Islam" - what's that?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 11:41PM #171
habesor
Posts: 5,722

Ibn,


You raised the issue of political Judaism and political Christianity. I would like to comment on that.


Such a concept, in my opinion, could have a good deal of use when looking at the Jewish and Christian world. Certainly there are professional Jews, i.e. Jews who earn their living through Jewish activities. A rabbi salaried by the local Jewish congregation, could certainly be considered a professional Jew. So could directors of Jewish schools and Jewish community centers. When I was at University in the USA, there was the salaried director of the Hillel House on campus, who could be considered a professional Jew in much the same way that the director of the Catholic Newman Center could be considered a professional Catholic.


It seems to me that the Zionist movement was, before the establishment of the State of Israel,  an example of political Judaism. It became much less so after the establishment of the state. I would argue that AIPAC also could be such an example, though the concept looses clarity because AIPAC includes a good many non-Jews among its members. 


As for political Christians, it seems to me that there are political organizations; in the USA these are usually single issue political lobbies, which claim to be inspired by their Christian faith. On these forums we have one participant who continuously claims to hold principled political opinions on the Arab-Israeli conflict because of her Christian beliefs. It seems to me that this would be another example of political Christianity. One also might consider political activities of the national Council of Churches and other Christian organizations as political Christianity.


I don't see anything wrong with examining any of these or comparing political Judaism, Christianity and Islam just so long as we understand that we are learning about them and not about the religion belief systems which give rise to them.


Habesor  

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 3:50PM #172
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 12, 2012 -- 11:41PM, habesor wrote:


I don't see anything wrong with examining any of these or comparing political Judaism, Christianity and Islam just so long as we understand that we are learning about them and not about the religion belief systems which give rise to them.


Habesor  




There are plenty of differences that don't hold for Islam as they may for Judaism or Christianity.  For one, in Sunni Islam, the largest sect, there is no provision made for "professional Muslims", such as  a clergy class would represent.  The closest thing we would have to that are scholars trained and licensed to adjudicate legal matters.  In Sunni Islam, each Muslim's relationship with God is personal with no intercessors.  We are advised by God and our scholars to question and even reject practices and rulings that don't comport with the Qur'an.


That is not so for Shia Islam.  Their priestly class is well established, ordained by lineage traced back to the family of the Prophet (pbuh), not by choice.  They act as unquestioned, infallible authorities in their communites and are appealed to as intercessors between God and humans.  Shias are our Catholics, as their practice and belief has several elements found in Catholicism which are not part of Sunni practice.


I'm not intending to be accusatory by saying that the influence of the doctrine of clerical infalliblity held by the Shia, and also by the Salafi, would lend itself more easily to taqlid, the blind following of clerical dictates.  There are Shia that would not be moved by violence and nonsense in God's name, and there are those among the Sunni who would be so moved.


Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:00AM #173
Ibn
Posts: 4,937

Apr 12, 2012 -- 11:41PM, habesor wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with examining any of these or comparing political Judaism, Christianity and Islam just so long as we understand that we are learning about them and not about the religion belief systems which give rise to them.



Habesor,


Well, I did not see anyone caring to examine "political Judaism" before creation of State of Israel or even after that but why so important to examine "political Islam" only?


As for difference in "political Judaism" and belief system of Judaism, how does one know that "political Judaism" is not linked to belief system of Judaism if we don't know belief system of Judaism?


My point is that if you did not know tomatoes and mangoes you would not know whether I have given you a jar of mango chutney with a tomato sauce label on it. You would need to know tomatoes and mangoes before you could understand whether it is tomato sauce or mango chutney.


The same applies here, you need to understand Judaism to understand "political Judaism" and you need to understand Islam to understand "political Islam" or else you are never going to know the truth just by looking at the label. 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 4:23PM #174
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 12, 2012 -- 2:06PM, rangerken wrote:


What's going on in Egypt is, to me, a perfect example of political Islam messing things up, and of course what the Saudis do and what is done in Iran in the name of Islam I find repulsive. Now it's fine for Muslims to say none of those three examples are 'real Islam', and I won't argue because not being a Muslim I willingly defer to Muslims when it comes to defining their own eligion. BUT, there is no escaping the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia, and the Mullahs in Iran all claim that they are following and are  seeking to impose their understanding of and belief in Islam as the basis for government and life in all respects. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is, to me, and many others, indeed 'political Islam' at work. 


Ken




It's insane that you even have to express it, Ken. It's so obvious!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 4:25PM #175
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 22, 2012 -- 4:23PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 2:06PM, rangerken wrote:


What's going on in Egypt is, to me, a perfect example of political Islam messing things up, and of course what the Saudis do and what is done in Iran in the name of Islam I find repulsive. Now it's fine for Muslims to say none of those three examples are 'real Islam', and I won't argue because not being a Muslim I willingly defer to Muslims when it comes to defining their own eligion. BUT, there is no escaping the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia, and the Mullahs in Iran all claim that they are following and are  seeking to impose their understanding of and belief in Islam as the basis for government and life in all respects. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is, to me, and many others, indeed 'political Islam' at work. 


Ken




It's insane that you even have to express it, Ken. It's so obvious!




It opens the door to discussing obvious political Judaism that makes Israel hate its Arab Muslim neighbors and refuse to get along with them.  It also fuels the fear that Arabs will outnumber Jews, who want to continue to dominate Arabs in Israel.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:15PM #176
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

While discussing any religion in terms of its being involved in politics is an interesting topic, such belongs on a discuss religion board. BUT, given how Islam, as a governing, and economic, and legal system obviously does affect the Middle East, 'political Islam' is appropiate for discussion here.


Having said that, the political influence of Orthodox Judaism inside Israel, which influence does exist, and does affect Israeli politics, IS appropriate fodder on this forum...just not on this thread!


So if someone wants to begin a thread titled 'poltical Judaism', relating it to things inside Israel, this would be totally acceptable on this forum.


Again, political Judaism is NOT on topic for this thread, and any references to it on this thread will be removed!


Rangerken, co-host

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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