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Switch to Forum Live View Newspeak: Abusing language to squelch debate about terror in the name of Islam
2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 9:57AM #21
LeahOne
Posts: 16,270

Miraj, Sorry - I didn't quite follow that (I need another cup of tea, perhaps?)  I don't know if JA sees a difference: I do.


My view of HAMAS is that they are a group of reactionary thugs who are wrapping their hate speech in the rhetoric of their religion EXACTLY as the 'Religious Reich' /Dominionists of Christianity and the extremist - and OUTLAWED! - 'Kach' party in Israel.  No doubt there are Hindu and possibly even Buddhist analogs to this form of repressive religion-saturated extremism - but I don't think I've run across any Pagans who harbor such aspirations.  There have been atheists I've encoutnered who were every bit as inflexible and repressive in their outlook, too.  So I've got a hard time attaching this 'ideology' to any specific religion.


I tend to see them all as 'nassty old men' - Oh, did I mention the FLDS in the US? - who want to own, dominate and control every aspect of the lives of everyone else in their community.  


I'm curious to know how anyone else views these different 'movements'?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 10:04AM #22
LeahOne
Posts: 16,270

They may be using verses from the Qu'ran to 'base' their intentions upon - but is their interpretation of those verses within 'normative' Islam?


The overhwelming majority of Zionists said "NO!" very loudly to Kahane and his lot.  The 'mainstream' Christians reject the Rushdooney loonies.


I do not even know where to look to see what spokespeople from 'mainstream' Islam have to say about the ideas of the HAMAS Charter.  I don't have any Muslim neighbors handy to ask.  Which is why people like you are getting stuck with the task of trying to help Americans to learn about 'mainstream' Islam.....  Many of the Jewish posters here have been in the same situation, yes.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 10:39AM #23
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Perhaps, but it's Islamist. And this is the Middle East politics board. If you open a thread on DI how the Hamas Charter has no connections to anything Islam -- despite its claims of allegiance to Allah, the Quran, Mohammed, etc. -- I might take the time to look at it. 


Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:40AM, Miraj wrote:


Thanks, but that is not an Islamic text. 


Mar 31, 2012 -- 11:32PM, JAstor wrote:


The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)


“In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.” Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111


Articles of the Hamas Charter


Article One: 
The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.

Article Two: 
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era. It is characterized by a profound understanding, by precise notions and by a complete comprehensiveness of all concepts of Islam in all domains of life: views and beliefs, politics and economics, education and society, jurisprudence and rule, indoctrination and teaching, the arts and publications, the hidden and the evident, and all the other domains of life.


Article Five: 
As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution. Its special dimension extends wherever on earth there are Muslims, who adopt Islam as their way of life; thus, it penetrates to the deepest reaches of the land and to the highest spheres of Heavens.


Article Six: 
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives, properties and rights. [i.e. dhimmitude or death]


Article Seven:


Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).


Article Eight: 
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.


Article Eleven
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. 


Article Fifteen: 
When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. 
The ‘ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness.


Article Eighteen
The women in the house and the family of Jihad fighters, whether they are mothers or sisters, carry out the most important duty of caring for the home and raising the children upon the moral concepts and values which derive from Islam; and of educating their sons to observe the religious injunctions in preparation for the duty of Jihad awaiting them











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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 10:43AM #24
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:45AM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:42AM, LeahOne wrote:


Miraj, I think that's what could be described as an 'Islam-IST' text?


Are you agreeing with the ideas of the text, or not?




Hi, Leah.  Please review post #9 to understand what I was asking for and why. I'm hoping that JAstor knows the difference.




I wonder if Miraj knows the similarites.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 3:14PM #25
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

The Hamas Charter is an outdated document I have seen no evidence anyone in our world is today guided by or reads, except people who want to demonize Muslims.


So, while it might seem a fun activity for posters to discuss here, it has nothing to do with reality. And I have nothing to say about it.


Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims have been getting along together for over one thousand years.


The Occupation, that violates human rights of nonJews throughout Palestine, is a rather short-lived Israeli invention, looking at the larger scheme of things. It's time will end, as will the Apartheid Israeli Regime in power in the land today.


As pointed out in the Maan article, from the mouths of Palestinian Christians themselves, Palestinian Christians leave Palestine because of the Israeli Occupation, not anything Muslims do.


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 4:09PM #26
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,571

Apr 1, 2012 -- 3:14PM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:


The Hamas Charter is an outdated document I have seen no evidence anyone in our world is today guided by or reads … it {and} has nothing to do with reality.   And I have nothing to say about it…



Hamas has never rescinded their Charter.  It remains their official charter.  The continued Kassam launches from Gaza into Israel, the continued terror attacks and suicide bombings all continue to show how Hamas is guided by the charter. 


The only way one can deny the proof of it is to wear blinders.  Your desire not to address reality does not prevent others from pointing out that reality to you.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 4:11PM #27
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 1, 2012 -- 3:14PM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:


The Hamas Charter is an outdated document I have seen no evidence anyone in our world is today guided by or reads, except people who want to demonize Muslims.




The (willfully) blind don't see herds of elephants in front of their eyes. The hateful see herds of elephants where there are none. 


In any event, it is easy to disprove the claim that the Hamas Charter is outdated and not in effect any longer. 


NO RETRACTION 
1) The first, most obvious proof is that no Hamas leader has come outright and declared it null and void (indeed, the Charter itself says that if anyone does so, they are lying because its principles are Allah's will). 

IN THEIR OWN WORDS 
2) Second, there are numerous statements by Hamas leaders that the words of their Charter are very much in effect. Here's a site that lists some: (www.adl.org/main_Israel/hamas_own_words....

A sampling of quotes: 
(The Jewish lobby) "controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy.” Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008 (as reported by AFP and other news agencies) 

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path." (Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007) 

"[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel]." (Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz) 

"They have tried to pressure Hamas to abandon resistance and to abandon arms. They tried to pressure Hamas to abandon its strategic choice in Palestine, all of Palestine. They tried to pressure Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. But they failed… We say Hamas will not change its constant principles." (Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Reuters) 

"The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem." (Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain) 

And another list: www.camera.org/index.asp?x_artic … _context=7 
Here's a sampling of quotes: 

Abdel Aziz Rantisi 
We in Hamas believe peace talks will do no good. We do not believe that we can live with the enemy. (New York Times, April 4, 2002.) 

“The gates of resistance are open totally.” Those statements are heard by the military wing, he [Rantisi] says, “and they listen because we are the political leaders.” (New York Times, April 4, 2002.) 

We will kill Jews everywhere. There will be no security for any Jews, those who came from America, Russia or anywhere.(Chicago Tribune July 23, 2002.) “As long as they kill civilians, we kill civilians.” (Chicago Tribune, Aug 6, 2001.) 

Sheik Ahmed Yassin 
“Resistance will move forward. Jihad will continue, and martyrdom operations will continue until the full liberation on Palestine.” (Boston Globe Dec. 28, 2002.) 

Ismail Abu Shanab 
Hamas will not accept any document that does not give it the right of resistance on all Palestinian land. (Aug. 14, 2002.) 

We are coming. We have accepted the challenge. We are coming to Tel Aviv. We are coming to every place in Palestine to purify it from the Jews. (New York Times, Oct. 28, 2000.) 

Mahmoud al-Zahar 
“Forty were killed and 200 injured — in just two operations,”al-Zahar said with a smile.” (Referring to the March 2002 Passover attacks against civilians sitting down to a Passover meal and quoted in the New York Times April 4, 2002.) 

SUICIDE BOMBINGS SINCE 1988 
There have been some 500 deaths due to successful suicide attacks since 1988. If the Charter was outdated, someone should have told the suicide/mass murder bombers that Hamas sent. 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ha … de_attacks 

THOUSANDS OF MISSILES FIRED ON CIVILIAN AREAS 
Part of the Hamas campaign of terror has been to fire missiles indescriminately onto Israeli cities. These missiles have in fact killed several innocent civilians, but it has also been successful (according to the terrorist's definition of success) terrorizing the population and provoking Israel into responding. This, too, is consistent with the Hamas Charter. 
____ 

In short, anyone who claims the Hamas Charter is outdated and no longer in effect is willfully blind. There is no rational reason other than blind hatred to which one can attribute such behavior. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 4:32PM #28
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:24AM, habesor wrote:


Sherri,


You might, one of these days, want to talk to Palestinian Christians in private. Indeed, you might want to talk to Palestinian Muslims in private as well. I expect that you would be surprised at some of the opinions you would hear from them. Beyond a doubt public statements by Palestinian Christian leaders are made for public consumption. I suspect that if I were a Palestinian Christian you would be quoting my public statements made mainly with the purpose of keeping my head attached to the rest of my body. 


I bet you would have believed every scene from the documentary, "Terezin: A Documentary Film from the Jewish Settlement Area". 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_(film) 


Habesor





Habesor,


All are free to read the words of Palestinian Christians written in their Kairos Palestine document, and publicly released to the world.


"We, a group of Christian Palestinians, after prayer, reflection and an exchange of opinion, cry out from within the suffering in our country, under the Israeli occupation, with a cry of hope in the absence of all hope, a cry full of prayer and faith in a God ever vigilant, in God’s divine providence for all the inhabitants of this land. Inspired by the mystery of God's love for all, the mystery of God’s divine presence in the history of all peoples and, in a particular way, in the history of our country, we proclaim our word based on our Christian faith and our sense of Palestinian belonging – a word of faith, hope and love..."


www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID...


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 4:59PM #29
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 1, 2012 -- 10:43AM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:45AM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:42AM, LeahOne wrote:


Miraj, I think that's what could be described as an 'Islam-IST' text?


Are you agreeing with the ideas of the text, or not?




Hi, Leah.  Please review post #9 to understand what I was asking for and why. I'm hoping that JAstor knows the difference.




I wonder if Miraj knows the similarites.




You're on a campaign to equate the Hamas Charter with the Qur'an.  Show us how.  If you can't, you have no point.  I'm betting you have no point.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 5:14PM #30
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Apr 1, 2012 -- 4:09PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Apr 1, 2012 -- 3:14PM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:


The Hamas Charter is an outdated document I have seen no evidence anyone in our world is today guided by or reads … it {and} has nothing to do with reality.   And I have nothing to say about it…


Hamas has never rescinded their Charter.  It remains their official charter.  The continued Kassam launches from Gaza into Israel, the continued terror attacks and suicide bombings all continue to show how Hamas is guided by the charter. 


The only way one can deny the proof of it is to wear blinders.  Your desire not to address reality does not prevent others from pointing out that reality to you.


mlyons619,


But The Hamas Charter is most certainly not The Palestinian Constitution, so what in this world is your point here? 


Hamas, at the most, is like a political party in a position of power (power is limited by the Occupation) presently in part of Palestine, elected in Democratic elections by the people, like the Republican Party or Democratic Party in power in Congress or a Republican or Democrat elected as President. And The Hamas Charter is an outdated document that has questionable present relevancy. The policies of a governing party, present or 20+ years ago, are most certainly not equivalent to a Constitution of the people.


Sherri

Moderated by Merope on Apr 02, 2012 - 02:52AM
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