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2 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 1:27PM #11
rangerken
Posts: 15,880

Well Ted, it meant and means something to my son, my wife, both our fathers, both our gandfathers, my wife's mother, and my wife's great and great great grandfathers, and a whole bunch of brothers and sisters in law, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces and God knows how many cousins... and of course me! So I don't have much sympathy for those who take the oath and then break it.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 1:33PM #12
Unworthyone
Posts: 1,963

Mar 24, 2012 -- 1:02PM, ted08721 wrote:

I think the real question to all police and military should be did the oath you swore to really mean anything to you.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4AKkF97fcE&feat...




You are asking law enforcement and the military to decide which public policies they will enforce.


We are a nation of law.  We strive to the ideal that all citizens are equal under the law.  In this country, it is the citizenry that is responsible for making public policy and laws. To ask soldiers and cops to decide for themselves which laws they will enforce is to open us up to total anarchy.  And the response to that will indeed be a police state.


As it is, we hold our military and our cops accountable for the manner in which they enforce policy and law, but they are not rsponsible for the laws themselves.


Many of us screamed from the rooftops when the Patriot Act was passed to no avail.  Nevertheless, it is not the military or the police we need to turn to in order to correct the wrong.  We need to appeal to our legislatures, and failing that, the courts.  To suggest otherwise is to invoke a military coup or an all-out revolution.


Maybe total warfare on the streets of America is what you think ought to occur to fix the problems we face.  Most of us are still willing to work within the system.

I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.  Thomas Jefferson

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein

You can get anything you want out of life if you will just help enough other people get what they want. Zig Ziglar

Here's the difference between a capitalist society and a communist society:  Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 2:50PM #13
ted08721
Posts: 3,714

Mar 24, 2012 -- 1:33PM, Unworthyone wrote:


Mar 24, 2012 -- 1:02PM, ted08721 wrote:

I think the real question to all police and military should be did the oath you swore to really mean anything to you.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4AKkF97fcE&feat...




You are asking law enforcement and the military to decide which public policies they will enforce.


We are a nation of law.  We strive to to the ideal that all citizens are equal under the law.  In this country, it is the citizenry that is responsible for making public policy and laws. To ask soldiers and cops to decide for themselves which laws they will enforce is to open us up to total anarchy.  And the response to that will indeed be a police state.


As it is, we hold our military and our cops accountable for the manner in which they enforce policy and law, but they are not rsponsible for the laws themselves.


Many of us screamed from the rooftops when the Patriot Act was passed to no avail.  Nevertheless, it is not the military or the police we need to turn to in order to correct the wrong.  We need to appeal to our legislatures, and failing that, the courts.  To suggest otherwise is to invoke a military coup or an all-out revolution.


Maybe total warfare on the streets of America is what you think ought to occur to fix the problems we face.  Most of us are still willing to work within the system.




Lets not pretend, in most cases it takes an obscene amount of money to get elected, it is all about marketing the candidate, as long as the elite corporate can give unlimited monies to super pacs those elected are beholding to those elite corporate interests not ours.

As far as being a Nation of Laws I will have to defer to Martin L. King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"
" one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws, an unjust law is no law at all."

And I would never suggest violence in any form, I believe non violent civil disobedience is the way for us to create a better society.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 5:17PM #14
rangerken
Posts: 15,880

Ted, you are making a specious argument. Perhaps...maybe...in an extreme situaton, someone who was drafted, as in a conscript, MIGHT  have some extenuating and mitigating circumstances to be used as a defense. But with today's all volunteer military there is not a chance of that. Except for an unlawful order (as in shoot the prisoners or kill the women, etc) an order must be obeyed...period. And this marine knew that and knows that and should be prosecuted. Now as I said, I'd just kick him out with a less than honorable discharge, though not a life wrecking dishonorable or bad conduct one.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 11:38PM #15
ted08721
Posts: 3,714

Mar 24, 2012 -- 5:17PM, rangerken wrote:


Ted, you are making a specious argument. Perhaps...maybe...in an extreme situaton, someone who was drafted, as in a conscript, MIGHT  have some extenuating and mitigating circumstances to be used as a defense. But with today's all volunteer military there is not a chance of that. Except for an unlawful order (as in shoot the prisoners or kill the women, etc) an order must be obeyed...period. And this marine knew that and knows that and should be prosecuted. Now as I said, I'd just kick him out with a less than honorable discharge, though not a life wrecking dishonorable or bad conduct one.


Ken





Ken I disagree with your analysis, first of all even though it is an all volunteer army the military spends 20 billion dollars a year to lure young  naive kids into the military, they hire the same marketing people that Coke and McDonalds use, not long ago I read an article where some military big wig said military video games was a major recruiting tool.
Just look at that latest military produced navy seal movie and commercials on TV.
Thanks to "No Child left Behind" program recruiters have unfeathered access to high school students and their files; no wonder Bush supported the program.
I could go on and on how recruiting entrudes into the world of our youth but I think you get my point.

Specious?  I think we are living in an extremely dangerous times.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 12:35AM #16
Unworthyone
Posts: 1,963

Mar 24, 2012 -- 11:38PM, ted08721 wrote:


The military spends 20 billion dollars a year to lure young  naive kids into the military, they hire the same marketing people that Coke and McDonalds use, not long ago I read an article where some military big wig said military video games was a major recruiting tool.


Just look at that latest military produced navy seal movie and commercials on TV.
Thanks to "No Child left Behind" program recruiters have unfeathered access to high school students and their files; no wonder Bush supported the program.



20 billion per year in luring costs?? You're gonna have to back that one up.


And FYI, the word is "unfettered" not "unfeathered"




I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.  Thomas Jefferson

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein

You can get anything you want out of life if you will just help enough other people get what they want. Zig Ziglar

Here's the difference between a capitalist society and a communist society:  Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 12:45AM #17
ted08721
Posts: 3,714

Mar 25, 2012 -- 12:35AM, Unworthyone wrote:


Mar 24, 2012 -- 11:38PM, ted08721 wrote:


The military spends 20 billion dollars a year to lure young  naive kids into the military, they hire the same marketing people that Coke and McDonalds use, not long ago I read an article where some military big wig said military video games was a major recruiting tool.


Just look at that latest military produced navy seal movie and commercials on TV.
Thanks to "No Child left Behind" program recruiters have unfeathered access to high school students and their files; no wonder Bush supported the program.



20 billion per year in luring costs?? You're gonna have to back that one up.


And FYI, the word is "unfettered" not "unfeathered"









The Military Uses Aggressive Recruiting Tactics And Spends Billions Of Dollars On


Advertising Firms To Convince Teenagers To Enlist.


• Funding for military recruitment is on the rise. The 2009 military advertising budget


totals $20.5 Billion. This money is used for slick ads and video games designed by the


same marketing firms that create commercials for major corporations, such as Coca-Cola,


McDonald’s and Nintendo. These ads and video games do not accurately portray the


lives of soldiers and do not mention the dangers of war.


law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/u/MilitaryR...

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 12:56AM #18
ted08721
Posts: 3,714

Also from the same report


Adolescents Lack the Neurological Capacity to Make Fully Informed Decisions


The military is exploiting the fact that adolescents lack a fully-developed capacity to


make informed decisions.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 2:42AM #19
Unworthyone
Posts: 1,963

Mar 25, 2012 -- 12:45AM, ted08721 wrote:

The Military Uses Aggressive Recruiting Tactics And Spends Billions Of Dollars On


Advertising Firms To Convince Teenagers To Enlist.


• Funding for military recruitment is on the rise. The 2009 military advertising budget


totals $20.5 Billion. This money is used for slick ads and video games designed by the


same marketing firms that create commercials for major corporations, such as Coca-Cola,


McDonald’s and Nintendo. These ads and video games do not accurately portray the


lives of soldiers and do not mention the dangers of war.


law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/u/MilitaryR...




Well done.  I may not necessarily agree with your conclusions, but I checked out the primary source from the link you provided, and $20 billion is accurate.  I had no idea we spent that much on military recruitment.

I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.  Thomas Jefferson

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein

You can get anything you want out of life if you will just help enough other people get what they want. Zig Ziglar

Here's the difference between a capitalist society and a communist society:  Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 9:24AM #20
ted08721
Posts: 3,714

Mar 25, 2012 -- 2:42AM, Unworthyone wrote:


Mar 25, 2012 -- 12:45AM, ted08721 wrote:

The Military Uses Aggressive Recruiting Tactics And Spends Billions Of Dollars On


Advertising Firms To Convince Teenagers To Enlist.


• Funding for military recruitment is on the rise. The 2009 military advertising budget


totals $20.5 Billion. This money is used for slick ads and video games designed by the


same marketing firms that create commercials for major corporations, such as Coca-Cola,


McDonald’s and Nintendo. These ads and video games do not accurately portray the


lives of soldiers and do not mention the dangers of war.


law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/u/MilitaryR...




Well done.  I may not necessarily agree with your conclusions, but I checked out the primary source from the link you provided, and $20 billion is accurate.  I had no idea we spent that much on military recruitment.




I think the time is coming  and the last pieces are being put into place Patriot Act , NDAA etc. along with new anti protest laws that take away free speech, in some cases protesting has recently been made a felony, many states and local government have been busy passing laws to restrict assemblies to protests.

Actually I should not say the time is coming it has already started with the government trying to suppress the first really physical signs of unrest through the Occupy Movement.
it has been shown that Homeland Security, FBI ,CIA and various anti terrorist  units have been involved with trying to stamp out dissent.

The signs are all there including having the government and Supreme Court being controlled by a few, lets face it money is what controls government.
The country is one event away from all hell breaking lose, that could come in the form of a natural disaster or a manufactured event such as a terror attack.
It seems every time something happens the government uses it as an excuse to tighten their control on the citizens of this country.

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