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Switch to Forum Live View Real Democracy Is Coming to the U.S.A.
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 4:25PM #31
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
First, you don't seem to get the essential point: Jefferson himself despised democracy, for he well-knew that in a pure democracy, unfettered by any Constitutional limitations, 51% can vote any number of horrors upon the remaining 49%.

Hence his support for the Constitutional REPUBLIC, a few citations in support of which follow:

"I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain
itself in strength:
1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will
secure or endanger his freedom.
2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each
will be within reach of a central school in it."
-- Thomas Jefferson(1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President
Source: in a letter to John Tyler, 1810.
The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Memorial Edition 12:393 (Lipscomb and Bergh, editors), 1903-04

"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"The way to have good and safe government is not to trust it all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to everyone exactly the functions in which he is competent...
- To let the National Government be entrusted with the defense of the nation, and its foreign and federal relations ...
- The State Governments with the Civil Rights, Laws, Police and administration of what concerns the State generally. 
- The Counties with the local concerns, and each ward direct the interests within itself.  It is by dividing and subdividing these Republics from the great national one down through all its subordinations until it ends in the administration of everyman's farm by himself, by placing under everyone what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the best."
-- Thomas Jefferson(1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President

If that ain't enuff fer ya, i gots more.
Jefferson was quite clear in his support for a Republic far over and above any purported "Jeffersonian democracy" that purported "scholars" have imputed to him.

That said, i agree with you about r-wing Republicans, though for different reasons: imo, a defacto Corporatocracy/plutocracy/oligarchy now exists which(to repeat myself) owns both the Republicrats and Democans, so it don't matter which one gets "elected," it'll just be a different Mouth of Sauron, with the same ol' Sauron back of them.

Right now, it's banks and allied corporations that rule not only America, but every industrialized nation on earth; they are the few, we are the many, and the many must continue to be deceived and led down the garden path by promoters of "democracy," which(for example), the Rooskies considered to be an ESSENTIAL step toward establishing the dominance of the State over the people without which it would not exist, it being a fictional construct ab initio.

A Constitutional Republic is the best guarantor of individual rights and freedoms, but ONLY as the People thereof jealously guard that liberty against all usurpations and arrogations of powers not delegated, either by force of law(oathbreaking comes to mind, i.e. felony perjury) or by dint of arms.

Whatever.

Remember that historically, democracies ALWAYS degenerate into tyrannies.  Continue to promote them at your peril.

ETA:  Please find the word "democracy" in the Constitution or amendments, then point out the Article, section, paragraph, or Amendment where you find it, ok?

With goodwill to all the People(except oathbreakers)-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:36AM #32
catboxer
Posts: 13,700

Well, Hatman, if you really dislike democracy that much, it's my unfortunate duty to tell you you're about to see some.


It won't be what Tom Jefferson had in mind, but you know he died in 1824.


That was 188 years ago.

Adepto vestri stercore simul.ttr
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:33PM #33
Reformationnow
Posts: 290

Apr 27, 2012 -- 4:25PM, Hatman wrote:

I agree with you about r-wing Republicans, though for different reasons: imo, a defacto Corporatocracy/plutocracy/oligarchy now exists which(to repeat myself) owns both the Republicrats and Democans, so it don't matter which one gets "elected," it'll just be a different Mouth of Sauron, with the same ol' Sauron back of them. Right now, it's banks and allied corporations that rule not only America, but every industrialized nation on earth; they are the few, we are the many ... Remember that historically, democracies ALWAYS degenerate into tyrannies. - Hatman



Well, I like your use of the term Republicrats, which Ralph Nader coined, because Democrats have become more and more the "lesser of two evils' that divide us.


As for your claim that Democracies always degenerate into tyrannies, you ought to read the article if cited, and related article linked to it. The author submits that real Democracy has not existed yet. He submits that Partisan Politics will become obsolete, and he suggests the way we can establish real Democracy in The 21st Century Declaration of Independence.


The irony of this debate is that I agree with you in the sense that Democracy, as we know it, is unworkable and merely perpetuates conflict and division. It is a juvenile contest for power, and as the author of the articles says, it produces winners and losers, continually battling for power over each other. 


That is why he suggest progessing and advancing BEYOND the children's game of King of the Mountain. He submits that we don't have to fight for the thone. We can share it, as equal joing heirs to our God-given inheritance -- with government that is actually of the people, by the people, and for the people.

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