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Switch to Forum Live View Real Democracy Is Coming to the U.S.A.
3 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 9:52PM #1
Reformationnow
Posts: 290

(The following is the beginning of an article titled Real Democracy Is Coming to the U.S.A.)


Many people have realized that the U.S. Government has not yet lived up to the actual intent of its Founding Fathers, and the American Dream has been compromised, to say the least.


In fact, the American Dream has been distorted into the idea that government should enable individuals to gain great personal fame and fortune, and simply forget about promoting the general welfare and ensuring domestic tranquility, equity and justice for all the people.


That's why so many in the younger generation have been influenced by the culture of greed and self-interest and are obsessed with material things, like fame, fortune, and image.


But, while that is ominous, even more ominous is that most young people no longer trust any politician, and see "the democratic process" of partisan politics as dirty, divisive, and rigged to benefit the wealthiest few.


That is why passive (or "meek"), conscientious, liberal progressives realize that rather than stoop to the level of aggressive, offensive and militant right-wing partisans, the best way to influence people is through effective art, literature, plays, documentaries, movies, and songs.


For example: "Democracy is coming to the U.S.A. It's coming to American first, the cradle of the best and worst." -- Leonard Chohen




The brilliant Leonard Cohen understands, as many of us do, that even though the United States of America was originally a great attempt at establishing Democracy, the U.S.A. does not yet have a real Democracy. The United States of America is neither united nor democratic, and it does not have government of the people, by the people, or for the people. In fact, America is ruled by the wealthiest few who believe they are entitled to rule.


America has an oligarchical Congress and Supreme Court that are divided and polarized by conflicting partisan political ideologies, and its executive branch is ruled by a partisan presidential form of monarchy. It is a system that perpetuates conflict and division, and it maintains a state of civil cold war that we've been led to believe is "civilized," even though every election year we see what it really is --- a fight for power that tempts corrupt people to be misleading and even deceptive in order to get what they want.


In spite of the reality, many Americans still believe that their partisan political economic system is the best in the world, and the best that we can produce. They believe that the people must be faced with a choice between partisan political candidates who are sanctioned and sponsored by an official partisan political party and its supporting interest groups. And even though Independents are allowed to "run" for office, the system is rigged to enable the two major official parties to be the main competitors, and one of their candidates always wins the winner-take-all contest for the presidency because they are the best funded.



However, the idea that our partisan political system is the best is not true. In fact, it is based on a deep lack of trust in the people to make wise choices on their own,because, after all, we are faced with choices presented to us by others. We do not actually have free choice.



What we need is free choice, because we can trust that, given total freedom and equal opportunity to actually and freely choose who we want to represent us in government, the vast majority of the people will make good choices, especially if we have an educated, informed public citizenry.

(Continued at Real Democracy Is Coming to the U.S.A.) 
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 11:32AM #2
Bodean
Posts: 9,594

I disagree.


Real democracy is captured in the quote of Alexander Tyler.


Real Democracy results in a populaiton voting itself riches from the public treasurey.


We've been here ever since the 1930s.


OH .. and Liberal Progressives .. as you call them, I prefer Leftists Doctrinaires as a more appropriate title ... are at the center of blame for bringing "real democracy" to the US.


We once had a Constitutional Republic. .. and that is what the Founding Fathers were shooting for .. .not "real democracy".

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 11:39AM #3
catboxer
Posts: 14,012

Democracy today is a global tsunami.


Don't look back.

Adepto vestri stercore simul.ttr
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 1:03PM #4
Reformationnow
Posts: 290

Mar 22, 2012 -- 11:32AM, Bodean wrote:


I disagree.


Real democracy is captured in the quote of Alexander Tyler.


Real Democracy results in a populaiton voting itself riches from the public treasurey.


We've been here ever since the 1930s.


OH .. and Liberal Progressives .. as you call them, I prefer Leftists Doctrinaires as a more appropriate title ... are at the center of blame for bringing "real democracy" to the US.


We once had a Constitutional Republic. .. and that is what the Founding Fathers were shooting for .. .not "real democracy".




Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and other Founding Fathers would disagree with you.


Jeffersonian Democracy --- which was and still is admired around the world --- calls for a Constitutional Democratic Republic. In fact, Jefferson and Madison formed the Democratic Republican Party in their campaign against the Hamilitonian Federalists.


Following are the next two paragraphs in the article (Real Democracy Is Coming to the U.S.A.):


"Americans need to realize that, as Thomas Jefferson reminded John Adams (a Federalist) in a letter in 1813, Jefferson had tried to establish a law providing free higher education at public expense to all qualified students, regardless of their parentage or wealth. Jefferson was against a 'psuedo-aristocracy' consisting of a privileged wealthy few. He saw true aristocrats as people from all walks of life, who would succeed in a society which enables all people to have equal opportunity to live up to their God-given potential."


"Unfortunately, the U.S. Government has totally ignored Jefferson’s vision in that regard. In fact, during the last 30 years the so-called 'religious right' has done much to harm public education and higher education, claiming most educators are 'secular humanists' who are 'against religion' (even though most educated people are merely against theocratic bigotry)."


I agree with that point of view, and I think the author has a good grasp on the reality of our situation. In his article on Ignored American History, he basically says this:


The basic partisan political division in America began between Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson when they were both in President Washington's cabinet, and their conflict sharpened in 1800.


Hamilton, a banker and a Federalist, argued that America should be a "Christian Meritocracy" where only wealthy Christians were entitled to rule.


On the other hand, Jefferson, a Democratic Republican, understood that the freedom of religion clause in the First Amendment and Article 6 of the Constitution meant that there must be a "wall of separation between church and state," and that there must be no religious requirement or test for office in government. Jefferson believed a man's religion was between him and God, and none of government's business, and that government must be nuetral regarding religions.


Jefferson won the competition against the Federalists, for good reason.


The Jefferson presidency was the high point of early U.S. history, mainly because of his democratic sense of fairness, respect for the French (from whom he purchased the Louisiana Territory), and respect for Native Americans, in that when he commissioned Lewis and Clark's Corps of Discovery he instructed them to respect the Native peoples and merely discover the lay of the land and its inhabitants, and find a route to the Pacific Ocean.


Things began to go south in 1823 with the "Doctrine of Discovery," which claimed Native Americans had no right to their land. And ever since there has been a contest for power between the "right and left," with the right basically promoting the Hamiltonian idea of "Christian Meritocracy" (which Reaganism still touts), while the left promotes the idea of Jeffersonian Democratic Republic.


When Republicans ruled in the 1920s the negated prior progressive reforms and enabled the wealthy, which inevitably led to runaway greed and corruption that caused the economic crash of 1929 and the Great Depression. Then President Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal saved the country, made it great, and made the middle class large and great. But then along came Nixon, and even worse, Reagan, who set out to destroy the New Deal and restored the Hamiltonian Federalist idea of a "Christian Meritocracy."


I think that is the gist of what the author's message is about America. And that's why he suggests that we need to use the tools the Founding Fathers gave us in Article 5 of the Constitution to fix the problems once and for all. See The 21st Century Declaration of Independence.





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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 6:07PM #5
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,158

The  spending overspending of National economic resources is dnto a result  Democracy but a result of career  politicians using the Federal budget to get reelected, reward be their business supporters , enrich themselves and their “friends ” to  enrich their friend and themselves.   Social programs  at the beginning stages were  paid for and would have been sustainable but politician kept   diverting the funds to pet projects, exempting benefactors  from the tax base.  Modern Democrats wan to over expand the programs and Republican want to defund government except the part that  benefits  their friends and  control industrial conglomerates.  Democracy could evolve to the “spend themselves “   but responsible representatives  in a Democratic Republic would not.


The ideals and politics of Jefferson, Madison, etc. are two hundred years old. They are based on an agrarian economy, horse and buggy technology and speed of horseback communication.  The ideas are also interpreted,  adjudicated, exploited  and explained  as to be unrecognizable by the authors.   

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 10:19PM #6
Reformationnow
Posts: 290

Mar 22, 2012 -- 6:07PM, Fodaoson wrote:


The  spending overspending of National economic resources is dnto a result  Democracy but a result of career  politicians using the Federal budget to get reelected, reward be their business supporters , enrich themselves and their “friends ” to  enrich their friend and themselves.   Social programs  at the beginning stages were  paid for and would have been sustainable but politician kept   diverting the funds to pet projects, exempting benefactors  from the tax base.  Modern Democrats wan to over expand the programs and Republican want to defund government except the part that  benefits  their friends and  control industrial conglomerates.  Democracy could evolve to the “spend themselves “   but responsible representatives  in a Democratic Republic would not.


The ideals and politics of Jefferson, Madison, etc. are two hundred years old. They are based on an agrarian economy, horse and buggy technology and speed of horseback communication.  The ideas are also interpreted,  adjudicated, exploited  and explained  as to be unrecognizable by the authors.   




I agree with some of that, but disagree with other parts.


While some influential progressives like David Swanson are trying to counter the idea of what he calls "lesser-evilism," I agree with the message in the article on Partisan Politics that submits that Democrats are in fact the lesser of the "two evils" that divide us -- because Democrats at least still claim to be advocates for the rights of the middle class, women, workers, minorities, etc., and a few of them actually are.


As for the claim that the ideals and politics of Jefferson and Madison were based on "horse and buggy technology," I could not disagree more.


As I said, Jefferson and Madison established a Democratic Republican Party because they believed the U.S.A. should be a Democratic Republic. And Jeffersonian Democracy is a standard that most fair, conscientious, reasonable, compassionate people in the world admire.


The original author of the message I promote (as a member of a Coalition that promotes peace, freedom and justice) regards Jefferson as the greatest Founding Father, and he reminds Americans what Jefferson really stood for. But, he goes much further than Jefferson, and he updated and advanced Jefferson's Declaration of Independence to create The 21st Century Declaration of Independence.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 10:52PM #7
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,158

Why do you disagree with “horse and buggy technology”?  Tell me one  new technology that will be developed  in the  23rd  century that will influence you thinking today.   For Jefferson the Ideal American was a Free man  who owned a Farm or plantation.  Land was available for every free man in the United states for free ( for the taking from the natives)  plantation.  Cities were small and city dweller had gardens and land for household livestock. Every free family grew most of its own food.  It took any adversary at least three weeks to move an aggressive  army to our shores. Explicit photos and pornography did not exist, radio and television did not exist as part of the ”press”.  All these things would change the way they would have looked at defense, free press, etc.         

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 9:31AM #8
Bodean
Posts: 9,594

Mar 22, 2012 -- 10:19PM, Reformationnow wrote:


I agree with the message in the article on Partisan Politics that submits that Democrats are in fact the lesser of the "two evils" that divide us -- because Democrats at least still claim to be advocates for the rights of the middle class, women, workers, minorities, etc., and a few of them





And this is where you ere, and show a Leftists Mentality that was not part of the fabric of the founding of the US.


While you "claim" Democrats advocate the rights of "some", the US Government must advocate and protect the rights of ALL!


Actually, IMO, the Democrats "Exploit the Poor" for political power.  That is what they do.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 12:18PM #9
loveontheair
Posts: 4,057

Hello,



Is this a *OWS poster? A Entitlement Mentality? Real Democracy would have ill-legal aliens not vote. Real Democracy would have you present your Driver's License to vote.


love

Moderated by MSaraTemp on Mar 30, 2012 - 01:43AM
Good works will never produce faith, but faith will always produce good works. loveontheair
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 1:40PM #10
catboxer
Posts: 14,012

Anarchy in the USA,


It's comin today, maybe


We know what we want


And know how to get it;



(adapted from


J. Rotten/Sex Pistols,


"Anarchy in the UK")

Adepto vestri stercore simul.ttr
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