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Switch to Forum Live View Killing an innocent boy
3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 7:33PM #301
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

Apr 8, 2012 -- 7:24PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Apr 8, 2012 -- 7:13PM, rabello wrote:


If Martin had had a gun and had shot Zimmerman, fatally or not fatally, Martin would be in jail today, waiting to see if he was going to get life without parole or a lethal injection.  




This unfortunately is true.


Hmmm.  You guys have such wonderful clairvoyance, why bother with a jury trial?  An individual's either guilty or innocent 'cuz your agenda sez so, eh?


IAE. you've already decided who the villain is, because that's what your agenda dictates, so let's hang 'em, eh.


Thank God none of you will ever be on the jury...

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 7:39PM #302
rabello
Posts: 22,031

You don't think Trayvon Martin would have been arrested if he had shot and killed George Zimmerman, Mlyons?   Why not??

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 7:53PM #303
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

You first.  Why do you think Trayvon would've been arrested had the roles been reversed?


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


BTW how is Zimmerman immune from prosecution?  Here's the Florida Law:



2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE


776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:


(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.


(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:


(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:


(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.


(5) As used in this section, the term:


(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.


(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.


(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.


(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).


776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:


(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or


(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:


(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good


"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 8:13PM #304
rabello
Posts: 22,031

Apr 8, 2012 -- 7:53PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


You first.  Why do you think Trayvon would've been arrested had the roles been reversed?




Because he's Black and because it's Florida.  Nobody would believe he was acting in self-defense.   There are enough examples of that, nationwide, to be reasonably sure of one's predictions.   Rodney King/Emmet Till...either one works.


Because he can't hide behind an authoritarian title like "neighborhood watch captain" that the cops would be influenced by


Because he doesn't have a father who is a magistrate and has ties to the Sanford Police Department.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Apr 8, 2012 -- 7:53PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


BTW how is Zimmerman immune from prosecution?  Here's the Florida Law:




He's not "immune" from prosecution. 


He hasn't even been charged!!  And that's 46 days after the shooting.  The cops believed his self defense story and cited the Stand Your Ground law as the reason they a) declined to arrest the shooter, and b) declined to conduct a full, legitimate forensic investigation.


It's too late now because any physical evidence that might have existed is gone.  They didn't test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol, they didn't get his supposed injuries from a fist fight documented by medical professionals, didn't take any photos, didn't interview key witnesses...by now, witness testimony can be impeached merely by the argument that it has become tainted.


Due to what I will call police incompetence, although it may be due to something else, the only thing they have left to go on is Zimmerman's claims of fearing for his life and killing in self-defense -- exactly as described in the caveat in the last paragraph of the Florida law you posted:


(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:


(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

Given all that, and the inability to prove what he claims is the truth, the Stand Your Ground law will protect him from actually going to trial.   He'll probably get charged with something, plead no contest, do some community service, and it'll all be over. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 8:17PM #305
Unworthyone
Posts: 3,077

Apr 8, 2012 -- 7:53PM, Mlyons619 wrote:

BTW how is Zimmerman immune from prosecution?



That's a question for the Sanford Police Department.  They decided that night that Zimmerman would not be charged.  If it were not for the media that you so despise in this case, this would all be history.  Zimmerman is immune until he is charged.  So far, that has not happened.  There is no cinch that he will be charged, either.


It is entirely possible that the Sanford police have so F'd this case up that the State's Attorney will not be able to build a constitutionally viable case against Zimmerman.  Forensics, evidence chain of custody,  crime scene management, witness tainting, etc.

I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.  Thomas Jefferson

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
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You can get anything you want out of life if you will just help enough other people get what they want. Zig Ziglar

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/opinion/why-i-m-for-the-brady-bill.html
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 8:47PM #306
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:13PM, rabello wrote:


You first.  Why do you think Trayvon would've been arrested had the roles been reversed?


 Because he's Black and because it's Florida.  Nobody would believe he was acting in self-defense.   There are enough examples of that, nationwide, to be reasonably sure of one's predictions.   Rodney King/Emmet Till...either one works.


Because he can't hide behind an authoritarian title like "neighborhood watch captain" that the cops would be influenced by


Because he doesn't have a father who is a magistrate and has ties to the Sanford Police Department.



#1  Your racist liberal bias is showing.  Obviously ALL Southerner are white racist honkies who can’t wait to put a brother down by your lights.  Yes, that’s a very racist attitude.


#2  Neighborhood watch captain or no, the cops detained Zimmerman initially.  It was nnot the cops who ordered him released.  No doubt Trayvon would’ve received the same treatment.


#3  Again, if roles were reversed, you don’t believe there are BLACK magistrates in Florida?


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:13PM, rabello wrote:


He's not "immune" from prosecution. 


He hasn't even been charged!!  And that's 46 days after the shooting.  The cops believed his self defense story and cited the Stand Your Ground law as the reason they a) declined to arrest the shooter, and b) declined to conduct a full, legitimate forensic investigation.




More than just the cops, I’d say.  Especially if there had been evidence that he’d been assaulted by Martin.  Especially if evidence indicated that Martin had tried to pull his gun as Zimmerman alleges.


However, Zimmerman was NOT on his property, and, if he was following Martin, it was in his own capacity and not in the capacity of a law enforcement officer


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:13PM, rabello wrote:


It's too late now because any physical evidence that might have existed is gone.  They didn't test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol, they didn't get his supposed injuries from a fist fight documented by medical professionals, didn't take any photos, didn't interview key witnesses...by now, witness testimony can be impeached merely by the argument that it has become tainted….Due to what I will call police incompetence…the only thing they have left to go on {now} is Zimmerman's claims of fearing for his life and killing in self-defense -- exactly as described in the caveat in the last paragraph of the Florida law you posted:


…Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless… Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant…


Given all that, and the inability to prove what he claims is the truth, the Stand Your Ground law will protect him from actually going to trial.   He'll probably get charged with something, plead no contest, do some community service, and it'll all be over. 




Then your issue is with the Police and not the Law itself.  Based on my read, Law Enforcement is in no way restricted from conducting an investigation:


…A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful….


So I’m NOT precluding that a trial COULD go forward.  I also do not discount the possibility of your “clairvoyance” being true, but trials a not things I would want to predict.  Again, I don’t see the LAW being at fault.


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:17PM, Unworthyone wrote:

the Sanford Police Department...decided that night that Zimmerman would not be charged.  If it were not for the media that you so despise in this case, this would all be history.  Zimmerman is immune until he is charged.  So far, that has not happened.  There is no cinch ...



Clearly UWO that's an unworthy response, indicative of poor reading skills.  I've repeated this so many times, yet (amazingly) you seemed to have missed it.  I do not despise the Media.  I DO despise the Media for selectively omission, creative editing, and outright falsehoods, all unncessary to report this case, and are now helping to further muddy efforts to prosecute.  Or do you believe that NBC news producer was fired for responsible journalism...?

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:20PM #307
rabello
Posts: 22,031

1) I know that conservatives deny that racism still exists in the US so it's not worth even trying to discuss that one, I will merely say that I said in the post that you find racist there are enough examples of racism nationwide to make your caustic response nonresponsive.


2) I did not say that Law Enforcement is precluded from investigating this killing.  They should have investigated it from the get-go, when there was actually evidence to collect.  That they DIDN'T do it (they DID conduct drug and alcohol test on the victim, curiously enough) is what is causing nationwide outrage -- not the media or some grand conspiracy of the media. 


3) What you perceive as reading comprehension problems (and, really, is it necessary to be that crude?) is actually disagreement between you and me, and a few others.   As it is, I disagree with your "read" of this terrible killing 100% -- starting with the fact that I think it was terrible even if Zimmerman and Martin got involved in a fistfight.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:22PM #308
teilhard
Posts: 51,829

So  NO  ONE  in The Community is alllowed to form ANY Opinion about a Case -- EXCEPT a Jury ... ???


Apr 8, 2012 -- 6:20PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


I believe I've told you (more than once)  that the ONLY opinions that SHOULD count in this case are those of the JURORS in their deliberations AFTER hearing ALL the testimony in the trial.





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:24PM #309
rabello
Posts: 22,031

Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:17PM, Unworthyone wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 7:53PM, Mlyons619 wrote:

BTW how is Zimmerman immune from prosecution?



That's a question for the Sanford Police Department.  They decided that night that Zimmerman would not be charged.  If it were not for the media that you so despise in this case, this would all be history.  Zimmerman is immune until he is charged.  So far, that has not happened.  There is no cinch that he will be charged, either.


It is entirely possible that the Sanford police have so F'd this case up that the State's Attorney will not be able to build a constitutionally viable case against Zimmerman.  Forensics, evidence chain of custody,  crime scene management, witness tainting, etc.




Thank you, Unworthyone

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 10:04PM #310
teilhard
Posts: 51,829

TWO Experts in Forensic Voice-Sound Analysis have said that the Voice screaming for "HELP ... !!!" on the Tape is NOT that of George "Night Stalker" Zimmerman ...


THAT is a FACT ...


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:47PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:13PM, rabello wrote:


You first.  Why do you think Trayvon would've been arrested had the roles been reversed?


 Because he's Black and because it's Florida.  Nobody would believe he was acting in self-defense.   There are enough examples of that, nationwide, to be reasonably sure of one's predictions.   Rodney King/Emmet Till...either one works.


Because he can't hide behind an authoritarian title like "neighborhood watch captain" that the cops would be influenced by


Because he doesn't have a father who is a magistrate and has ties to the Sanford Police Department.



#1  Your racist liberal bias is showing.  Obviously ALL Southerner are white racist honkies who can’t wait to put a brother down by your lights.  Yes, that’s a very racist attitude.


#2  Neighborhood watch captain or no, the cops detained Zimmerman initially.  It was nnot the cops who ordered him released.  No doubt Trayvon would’ve received the same treatment.


#3  Again, if roles were reversed, you don’t believe there are BLACK magistrates in Florida?


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:13PM, rabello wrote:


He's not "immune" from prosecution. 


He hasn't even been charged!!  And that's 46 days after the shooting.  The cops believed his self defense story and cited the Stand Your Ground law as the reason they a) declined to arrest the shooter, and b) declined to conduct a full, legitimate forensic investigation.




More than just the cops, I’d say.  Especially if there had been evidence that he’d been assaulted by Martin.  Especially if evidence indicated that Martin had tried to pull his gun as Zimmerman alleges.


However, Zimmerman was NOT on his property, and, if he was following Martin, it was in his own capacity and not in the capacity of a law enforcement officer


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:13PM, rabello wrote:


It's too late now because any physical evidence that might have existed is gone.  They didn't test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol, they didn't get his supposed injuries from a fist fight documented by medical professionals, didn't take any photos, didn't interview key witnesses...by now, witness testimony can be impeached merely by the argument that it has become tainted….Due to what I will call police incompetence…the only thing they have left to go on {now} is Zimmerman's claims of fearing for his life and killing in self-defense -- exactly as described in the caveat in the last paragraph of the Florida law you posted:


…Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless… Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant…


Given all that, and the inability to prove what he claims is the truth, the Stand Your Ground law will protect him from actually going to trial.   He'll probably get charged with something, plead no contest, do some community service, and it'll all be over. 




Then your issue is with the Police and not the Law itself.  Based on my read, Law Enforcement is in no way restricted from conducting an investigation:


…A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful….


So I’m NOT precluding that a trial COULD go forward.  I also do not discount the possibility of your “clairvoyance” being true, but trials a not things I would want to predict.  Again, I don’t see the LAW being at fault.


Apr 8, 2012 -- 8:17PM, Unworthyone wrote:

the Sanford Police Department...decided that night that Zimmerman would not be charged.  If it were not for the media that you so despise in this case, this would all be history.  Zimmerman is immune until he is charged.  So far, that has not happened.  There is no cinch ...



Clearly UWO that's an unworthy response, indicative of poor reading skills.  I've repeated this so many times, yet (amazingly) you seemed to have missed it.  I do not despise the Media.  I DO despise the Media for selectively omission, creative editing, and outright falsehoods, all unncessary to report this case, and are now helping to further muddy efforts to prosecute.  Or do you believe that NBC news producer was fired for responsible journalism...?





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