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Switch to Forum Live View Arabs not required to sing Israel's ethnocentric national anthem
3 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 3:16PM #51
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,560

MLyons


I would submit that it is not  so much that Israel needs to change but that it is the ethno-exclusive Arabs who need to change. Israel and Israelis accept the legitimate claims, cultures  and religions of the Arabs and other minorities, the reverse is not often true. Acceptance is certainly not apparent in the comments of the anit-Israel contingent here on B-net or elsewhere.  

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 11:54PM #52
habesor
Posts: 5,765

We've had more than 50 messages in this discussion and yet no one has shown how Israel's national anthem is ethnocentric. So first provide a definition of ethnocentrism and then show how this is manifested in Israel's national anthem. Finally it might be enlightening to show how your own national anthem is not ethnocentric.


Habesor


PS - Rather than creating your own definition, why not use one of the generally accepted definitions of the term ethnocentrism.

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 2:51AM #53
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Mar 17, 2012 -- 11:54PM, habesor wrote:


We've had more than 50 messages in this discussion and yet no one has shown how Israel's national anthem is ethnocentric. So first provide a definition of ethnocentrism and then show how this is manifested in Israel's national anthem. Finally it might be enlightening to show how your own national anthem is not ethnocentric.


Habesor


PS - Rather than creating your own definition, why not use one of the generally accepted definitions of the term ethnocentrism.




Origins of the concept and its study


The term ethnocentrism was coined by William G. Sumner, upon observing the tendency for people to differentiate between the ingroup and others. He defined it as "the technical name for the view of things in which one's own group is the center of everything, and all others are scaled and rated with reference to it."  He further characterized it as often leading to pride, vanity, beliefs of one's own group's superiority, and contempt of outsiders.


_____________________________________________________________________________


Hatikva - English Lyrics


As long as deep in the heart,
The soul of a Jew yearns,
And forward to the East
To Zion, an eye looks
Our hope will not be lost,
The hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our land,
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.



~Nothing ethnocentric there.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 3:14AM #54
habesor
Posts: 5,765

Miraj,


You wrote:


"~Nothing ethnocentric there." 



Given the definition of ethnocentrism that you posted, there is nothing ethnocentric in the words of Hatikvah.


Habesor

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 3:55AM #55
NahumS
Posts: 1,769

It's as ethnocentric as it comes. Ditto Israel's flag (the Star of David) and its national emblem - the Temple Menorah.


And I'm not unhappy with that, nor do I think we need to apologize.


Arabs and Muslims have 22 states that have national symbols, flags and an official religion (Israel lacks the latter), as do numerous European countries.


The issue is how are minorities treated - are they permitted to observe their religion, speak their language, etc? Do they have equal rights before the law? Is discrimination in employment officially tolerated?


If Israeli Arabs feel that they suffer discrimination (which happens, unfortunately) they can turn to the courts for redress. For example, whenlarger child-care allowances were suggested for IDF veterans, the supreme court ruled that this discriminated against Arab citizens. When new settlements (within the former green line)  were set up by the Jewish National Fund (not an official gov't body) for Jewish Israelis, an Arab citizen petitioned the Supreme Court to be allowed to buy there. He won.


This is legitimate. Arab citizens have rights, and they should be able to act (within the law) to achieve greater equality.


Part of the inequalities can be attributed to the cultural, educational and economic gap between Jews and Arabs. This is inevitable, but the gap can be narrowed and is being narrowed by promoting better education, job training, etc. Part relates to the networking that comes from army service. As an immigrant who never served in the IDF for age and health reasons, I can tell you that it makes a difference. Part relates from the unequal contribution to the country - not only through IDF or National Service, but also due to h tax evasion, quite common in the Arab sector. Part comes from not being willing to engage in the greater society - and the greater society's unwillingness to engage with them, sometimes. And the fact that Jewish organizations overseas contribute to Jewish causes in Israel and there is no tradition of overseas Arab philanthropy. Many Jewish organizations understand that promoting the wellbeing of Arab citizens helps Israel, and they have begun to invest in programs that directly benefit the Arab sector and narrow educational and other gaps.


But an Arab who wants to live in a society where the majority are Arabs/Muslims, speak Arabic and are surrounded by only Arab culture has a choice. The same choice that I had when I decided to come to Israel because I wanted to live in a society that was predominantly Jewish.


Few Israeli Arabs are interested in emmigration.


KS - you're right. The Arabs of Judea and Samaria are not equal citizens. They used to be Jordanian citizens, before Jordan suspended their citizenship. Their status has to be worked out as part of a greater political settlement. I would like them to gain Israeli citizenship if they are willing to be loyal citizens.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 7:14AM #56
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,478

Mar 13, 2012 -- 5:59AM, Miraj wrote:


Mar 13, 2012 -- 5:02AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


...The difference is that blacks in the US are Americans. Americans who can, and have, died for their country. They are loyal Americans, and their destiny and national identity is wrapped up in being American. That cannot be said with the same force regarding Arabs in Israel.



Ah, but that was not the case in the 1950s.  



Actually, it was.


Black Americans fought and died for their country going way back to the Revolutionary War.


There was a famous Black regiment in the Civil War (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/54th_Regiment_Mass...)


And there were Black regiments in WW1, 2, Korea, and beyond.


Black Americans have always been Americans, and as a group, have always been loyal Americans.  


That cannot be said for Arabs vis-a-vis Israel.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 10:00AM #57
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Mar 18, 2012 -- 7:14AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Mar 13, 2012 -- 5:59AM, Miraj wrote:


Mar 13, 2012 -- 5:02AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


...The difference is that blacks in the US are Americans. Americans who can, and have, died for their country. They are loyal Americans, and their destiny and national identity is wrapped up in being American. That cannot be said with the same force regarding Arabs in Israel.



Ah, but that was not the case in the 1950s.  



Actually, it was.


Black Americans fought and died for their country going way back to the Revolutionary War.


There was a famous Black regiment in the Civil War (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/54th_Regiment_Mass...)


And there were Black regiments in WW1, 2, Korea, and beyond.


Black Americans have always been Americans, and as a group, have always been loyal Americans.  


That cannot be said for Arabs vis-a-vis Israel.




Yes, Blacks did fight and die for the US, but they were not considered to be loyal citizens.  That's one of the reasons why the civil rights movement was necessary.  

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 10:05AM #58
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Mar 18, 2012 -- 3:14AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj,


You wrote:


"~Nothing ethnocentric there." 



Given the definition of ethnocentrism that you posted, there is nothing ethnocentric in the words of Hatikvah.


Habesor




That could be hard to see if you're part of the ethnicity it addresses. As NahumS and shmuel prove, there are Jews who see it as ethnocentric, but not a bad thing.  It's not a bad thing for me either, since I don't sing the Hatikva.  However, ethnocentricity does tend to mitigate claims of democracy for Israel just as it would for any other ethnocentric nation.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 10:08AM #59
KindredSai
Posts: 5,784

Miraj,


I don't think they understand the Jewish superiority complex in the State of Israel.


In a democratic Nation-State there is no privilidged ethnic group.


An Israeli-Arab is as much as an Israeli-Jew. Heck, I would be pissed off if I was an Israeli-Arab if my anthem solely mentioned Jews.


Just imagined if the American National Anthem solely mentioned White Christians...



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3 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2012 - 10:15AM #60
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Mar 18, 2012 -- 10:08AM, KindredSai wrote:


Miraj,


I don't think they understand the Jewish superiority complex in the State of Israel.


In a democratic Nation-State there is no privilidged ethnic group.


An Israeli-Arab is as much as an Israeli-Jew. Heck, I would be pissed off if I was an Israeli-Arab if my anthem solely mentioned Jews.


Just imagined if the American National Anthem solely mentioned White Christians...




I think they do, they just don't see it as an issue because that's the way it's supposed to be.  I prefer when people don't go through the process of trying to deny it.  Then, we can discuss it for what it is.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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