Feb 29, 2012 -- 1:40PM, agapath wrote:

Bodean:

Please provide a sample list of the civilizations to which you are referring and (as close as possible) the start and finish dates of the approximate 200 year span.

Thank you

Where most .. if not all of you are going wrong, is that you consider a "civilization" existence in name.  They aren't the same.  A "cvilization" refers to a continuous "city-state" ... meaning operating under the same laws.

While the Roman Empire existed for 2000 years, it changed readily, culturally and in terms of state held norms.  The most cited evidence for the "average" of 200 comes from the Chinese Dynasties, as they were less influenced by outside invasion.  Some were as short as 50 years, some lasted 400, but the average was 200. 

Likewise, a great example ... Iran has existed for thousands of years, but it's "civilization" has changed many times.

625-559 BC ... the Medes Empire [125 years]

560-330 BC ... Achaemenid Empire [170 years]

330-238 BC ... Seleucid Empire

238 BC - 224 AD ... The Parthian Empire [450 yeras]

224 - 632 AD ... Sassanid Empire

Between 632 and 1501, Iran was ruled by 10 different dynasties, and from 1501 to the present 6 more.

On average ... it's about 200 years.

The United States under the original interpretations of the Constitution has existed for 227 years ... but one has to question, how much longer will it last before the US is transformed to something that doesn't even remotely resemble the ideals that were envisioned 200 years ago.

Granted, in the past, dynasty's were often defeated militarily ... but many were defeated by revolt.  The US almost fell 100 years into its making with the Civil War.  We find today the makings of yet another Civil War .. but this time, it will be between the People of the United States and the Government.  The time is comming when the US Gov. turns it's military on the people to maintain control of its usurped power.  There will be supporters of the Government, mostly Leftists, and there will be the opposition, Conservatives, who at long last will refuse to be dictated too by an overreaching, left leaning, Corprocracy that hides itself behind the Democratic and Republican Parties [yes .. you read that right, the GOP is just as much invested in this corrupt corpracracy as the Democrats are, and only serve as the distraction to keep the people pacified into believing that we have some form of Democratic Republic].

It'll be a sad day, but .. hey, all great civilizations fall.

But as I noted earlier ... what will be the form of "Dictator" we get??  Will it be a Leftist group with total control, oppressing the people into a fuedal system with "elites" and peasants who are all equally poor, and dependent on the government for its every need .... or .... will it be a reinstatement of the original Ideal, were every man has "opportunity", Freedom and Liberty.

Who knows.

Feb 29, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Bodean wrote:

ahhhhh ... Costrel gets it.

The US Public has drifted too far apart in ideology and political ideals.  One has to ask how much longer the US Government can hold it together, all the while shoving things down the throats of the people who oppose such.

Sure .. a bunch of you want Univeral Health .. .and bunch of us don't.  A bunch of you like the politics of Obama .. and a bunch of us don't.  But with each successive entitlement installed into law, SS, Obamacare, Homeland Security, etc ... at some point the people "paying" will cry foul, and either stop paying and revolt, ... OR ... stop working, at which point the burden of this expensive Government bought on the back of bribes of the people will crumble.

Frankly, it would not hurt my feelings to see the US split apart.  I would no longer have to put up with the opinions of people from NYC and California creating law for the entire Nation, bilking the working class people to pay for their Utopian Fuedal System .... all in the name of "good intentions". 

I don't view the potential/inevitable breakup of the United States merely from the perspective of economics or even of politics though. I think geography, religion, materialism and anti-materialism, and social issues are all going to play important roles in the breakup. As much as I dislike Santorum's conservatism and his Catholic (some would say pseudo-Catholic) stances, I do have to agree with him that social issues (abortion, contraception, same-sex marriage, etc.) and religious issues (questions concerning secularism and science -- especially evolution, the place and role of religion in the public sphere, issues concerning the religious freedom rights of Catholics, the Amish, and Muslims, and the growing number of Americans who practice non-Christian religions or who practice no religion, etc.) are important aspects of changes -- for better and for worse -- occurring in this country. 

Coming up with an "average" of 200 years from empires that lasted 2000 and others that  lasted 175 hardly gives any indication of how long any  particular one will last.

Mar 1, 2012 -- 7:38AM, DGMelby wrote:

Feb 29, 2012 -- 9:38PM, Bodean wrote:

Granted, in the past, dynasty's were often defeated militarily ... but many were defeated by revolt.  The US almost fell 100 years into its making with the Civil War.  We find today the makings of yet another Civil War .. but this time, it will be between the People of the United States and the Government.  The time is comming when the US Gov. turns it's military on the people to maintain control of its usurped power.  There will be supporters of the Government, mostly Leftists, and there will be the opposition, Conservatives, who at long last will refuse to be dictated too by an overreaching, left leaning, Corprocracy that hides itself behind the Democratic and Republican Parties [yes .. you read that right, the GOP is just as much invested in this corrupt corpracracy as the Democrats are, and only serve as the distraction to keep the people pacified into believing that we have some form of Democratic Republic].

It'll be a sad day, but .. hey, all great civilizations fall.

But as I noted earlier ... what will be the form of "Dictator" we get??  Will it be a Leftist group with total control, oppressing the people into a fuedal system with "elites" and peasants who are all equally poor, and dependent on the government for its every need .... or .... will it be a reinstatement of the original Ideal, were every man has "opportunity", Freedom and Liberty.

Who knows.

It's funny, I think it's more likely that the US will be taken over by the Christian Taliban (AKA the religious right), while those who desire the freedom to live and worship as they desire ("liberals") finally taking up arms against those who would opporess us.

It's either that, or the corporate oligarchy will finish its takeover of the US government, only to be overthrown by those who believe that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" should not be a privalege for the wealthy, but the right of all Americans.

Either way,it won't be a good thing for the "right."

The only problem with your position Melby, is that you can't cite a single instance in modern time where American Christians have "forced" anyone to DO anything.  Your position is actually a twists.

Though I"m sure you can "spin" some issue to look like Christians are forcing others to do something, reality disproves it everytime.

In contrast, we can cite a long laundry list of where Leftists engage in Forcing Others to do against their will in the name of "social justice", .... the latest being this forced contraception crap foisted upon people at the hands of the Pelosi-Obama-Reid coalition.

Mar 1, 2012 -- 8:54AM, Bodean wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 7:38AM, DGMelby wrote:

Feb 29, 2012 -- 9:38PM, Bodean wrote:

Granted, in the past, dynasty's were often defeated militarily ... but many were defeated by revolt.  The US almost fell 100 years into its making with the Civil War.  We find today the makings of yet another Civil War .. but this time, it will be between the People of the United States and the Government.  The time is comming when the US Gov. turns it's military on the people to maintain control of its usurped power.  There will be supporters of the Government, mostly Leftists, and there will be the opposition, Conservatives, who at long last will refuse to be dictated too by an overreaching, left leaning, Corprocracy that hides itself behind the Democratic and Republican Parties [yes .. you read that right, the GOP is just as much invested in this corrupt corpracracy as the Democrats are, and only serve as the distraction to keep the people pacified into believing that we have some form of Democratic Republic].

It'll be a sad day, but .. hey, all great civilizations fall.

But as I noted earlier ... what will be the form of "Dictator" we get??  Will it be a Leftist group with total control, oppressing the people into a fuedal system with "elites" and peasants who are all equally poor, and dependent on the government for its every need .... or .... will it be a reinstatement of the original Ideal, were every man has "opportunity", Freedom and Liberty.

Who knows.

It's funny, I think it's more likely that the US will be taken over by the Christian Taliban (AKA the religious right), while those who desire the freedom to live and worship as they desire ("liberals") finally taking up arms against those who would opporess us.

It's either that, or the corporate oligarchy will finish its takeover of the US government, only to be overthrown by those who believe that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" should not be a privalege for the wealthy, but the right of all Americans.

Either way,it won't be a good thing for the "right."

The only problem with your position Melby, is that you can't cite a single instance in modern time where American Christians have "forced" anyone to DO anything.  Your position is actually a twists.

Though I"m sure you can "spin" some issue to look like Christians are forcing others to do something, reality disproves it everytime.

In contrast, we can cite a long laundry list of where Leftists engage in Forcing Others to do against their will in the name of "social justice", .... the latest being this forced contraception crap foisted upon people at the hands of the Pelosi-Obama-Reid coalition.

Until 1962, schools started the day with a Christian prayer, the non-Christians were forced to participate, at the very least, by presence.  Graduation, sports events  began with a prayer , 99% Christian prayer, 

Blue laws were, and are , based on religious  teachings. The last state to defund  state religion was Massachusetts in 1833