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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 10:46AM #41
Mostyn32
Posts: 2,941

Religious expression of any kind is not appropriate in a public school setting. If people want their children to be able to pray in school, they should send their kids to a faith-affiliated school.


That being said, when I was a child in the UK, I attended schools in which we attended chapel every morning before classes began and every late afternoon before we went home for the day. Bear in mind that separation of Church and State is not a British concept, and the 'state religion' is Christianity as it is practiced in the Church of England. However, students who belonged to other faith traditions than Christian were excused from chapel, and went to the library to study, but students who were Christian, whether they were Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, etc., went to chapel! We had courses on religion but they were overviews of all world religions, not just Christianity.

"God is no captious sophister, eager to trip us up whenever we say amiss, but a courteous tutor, ready to amend what, in our weakness or our ignorance, we say ill, and to make the most of what we say aright."  from 'A Learned Discourse on Justification', a sermon by Richard Hooker (1554-1600).
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 11:04AM #42
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,034

Mar 1, 2012 -- 1:42PM, costrel wrote:


Mar 1, 2012 -- 1:34PM, Girlchristian wrote:

Not my experience at all. My middle school had opening prayer, but I never said it. We weren't religious and my parents told me that I didn't have to. I was never once bullied or harassed by anyone. 


If they single someone out, yes. If they just lead a prayer and let the students make the choice to pray or not, I don't agree.


 This was my favorite prayer, the Salve Regina, when I was still a Christian:


Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our Life, our Sweetness, and our Hope.
To Thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To Thee do we send up our sighs mourning
and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
Thine Eyes of Mercy toward us,
and after this our exile show us the
Blessed Fruit of thy Womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us O Holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


Would Protestants, Evangelicals, and other non-Catholic Christians -- students and/or parents -- really like to hear this prayer in a public school classroom every day led by a teacher? Wouldn't they be just a little bit upset or a little bit uncomfortable? 





Well, I don't really see the need for teacher led prayer in schools. I don't agree that it's unconstitutional if it's optional and there is no harassment from teachers/administrators, but I think schools have more important things to do.


I wasn't uncomfortable, but then my personality isn't one to let stuff like that make me uncomfortable.


Besides, like the old adage says, "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools." Laughing

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 11:17AM #43
Bodean
Posts: 9,209

Mar 2, 2012 -- 10:38AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Mar 2, 2012 -- 9:25AM, Bodean wrote:


With each Government Intrusion into the normal compartments of life, such as retirement, healthcare, social contructs, etc, we lose our freedom and liberty, and the "dictatorship" grows stronger, and more oppressive.



Only if you don't retain control over your government,





How do you maintain control of a government that is buying it's way into total control??


The people who want to maintain control of the Government are labelled as right wingers, right wingnuts, lesser beings, unenlightened, blah blah blah.  I know you take a stab at the Rebulican Party, but the Democrats are far greater offenders.


While our left leaning crowd here wants to wade out into the weeds of religion, the fact of the matter remains, the Government is slowly taking away our freedoms and liberties by taking over responsibilities that belong to the individual, not the collective, and .. taking upon itself the duty of DICTATING to the people.  When a Government begins DICTATING to the people, it no longer qualifies as "government for the people, by the people".  In Fact, it no longer qualifies as "for the people" ... or ... "by the people".  It becomes a government "For Itself, by Itself".


I don't care what reason a person gives for opposing the slow establishment of the Dictatorship, be it political, religious, philosophical, whatever ... .opposition to such is in accordance with the original ideals of the United States of America.  The US was not created to be a Top Heavy, Powerful Central Government union.  It has reached the point that the Federal Government has made itself indispensable to the people through multiple dependence programs.  The States themselves cannot even survive without their Federal Grants.


This crap is INSANE.


But like I said ... the Leftists here are all hunky dory for now, as the broad spectrum dependence programs are consistent with their Leftists Doctrine of "social justice".  OH yeah ... we need Universal Healthcare .. everyone has a "right" to healthcare.  Oh yeah ... employers should be forced to provide B.C. pills to all women who want them .. free of charge.  Oh yeah ... we need to raise the taxes on the rich, to "spread the wealth around" [ref B. Obama].  Yep .. they are all for it .... for now.  But just wait until the elites put the peasants [sheep] in their place!  And by that time, there will be no turning back until a major revolution.


Some flippant teacher spouting out about religion, or some kid saying a prayer over the intercome will be the farthests thing from their minds when that time comes.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 11:23AM #44
lulu2
Posts: 454
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.”
Patrick Henry

 

Has the Healthcare mandate intruded on a particular group, or religious entity? If it was truly not a matter of womans health..why free contraception which is already easily accessible through Planned Parenthood and the like. Why not FREE breast care screening for all women?  Why did they pick the very subject that would conflict with the religious conscience of Catholics and other faith based entitys? I believe its truly a power grap covered in sheeps clothing.   
Without the Soul of Christ alive in us...we are nothing but empty shells...
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 11:49AM #45
amcolph
Posts: 17,153

Mar 2, 2012 -- 9:25AM, Bodean wrote:



 



I know you guys want to wade out in the weeds of the irrelevant ... but it does not erase the point.  With each Government Intrusion into the normal compartments of life, such as retirement, healthcare, social contructs, etc, we lose our freedom and liberty, and the "dictatorship" grows stronger, and more oppressive.


Granted, you leftists rejoice now, because the emerging dictatorship is along your leftists doctrinaire positions, grounded in Social Justice and equal poverty for all [except the ruling elite] ... but what will happen when it crosses that line?  You will not be able to complain, because you were one of the ones supporting its formation.




So your answer, as a conservative, is to hand that power over to the corporations and to religious minorities with political agendas.


At least we have (in theory, anyway) some control over what the government does.  You want to strip even theoretical control over power away from ordinary citizens.


What I want to know is what you think you're going to get from it that you are willing to sell out to them so completely.

This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 1:25PM #46
TENAC
Posts: 25,099

Mar 2, 2012 -- 11:49AM, amcolph wrote:


Mar 2, 2012 -- 9:25AM, Bodean wrote:



 



I know you guys want to wade out in the weeds of the irrelevant ... but it does not erase the point.  With each Government Intrusion into the normal compartments of life, such as retirement, healthcare, social contructs, etc, we lose our freedom and liberty, and the "dictatorship" grows stronger, and more oppressive.


Granted, you leftists rejoice now, because the emerging dictatorship is along your leftists doctrinaire positions, grounded in Social Justice and equal poverty for all [except the ruling elite] ... but what will happen when it crosses that line?  You will not be able to complain, because you were one of the ones supporting its formation.




So your answer, as a conservative, is to hand that power over to the corporations and to religious minorities with political agendas.


At least we have (in theory, anyway) some control over what the government does.  You want to strip even theoretical control over power away from ordinary citizens.


What I want to know is what you think you're going to get from it that you are willing to sell out to them so completely.





I am not sure which is worse.


Earned power or decreed power.

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 1:50PM #47
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Mar 2, 2012 -- 11:17AM, Bodean wrote:


How do you maintain control of a government that is buying it's way into total control??


The people who want to maintain control of the Government are labelled as right wingers, right wingnuts, lesser beings, unenlightened, blah blah blah.  I know you take a stab at the Rebulican Party, but the Democrats are far greater offenders.



In all likelihood, there is no talent for "government for the people, by the people" in either political camp in the USA, yes.



While our left leaning crowd here wants to wade out into the weeds of religion, the fact of the matter remains, the Government is slowly taking away our freedoms and liberties by taking over responsibilities that belong to the individual, not the collective, and .. taking upon itself the duty of DICTATING to the people.  When a Government begins DICTATING to the people, it no longer qualifies as "government for the people, by the people".  In Fact, it no longer qualifies as "for the people" ... or ... "by the people".  It becomes a government "For Itself, by Itself".



I guess you speak of the disturbing new tendencies of government acting against the people's intrest, like the new internet censorship laws passed on behalf of the entertainment industry? Or, government acting against the interests of the people when passing laws on behalf of banks, hedge funds, and other investors / owners of virtual stock bubble money?



I don't care what reason a person gives for opposing the slow establishment of the Dictatorship, be it political, religious, philosophical, whatever ... .opposition to such is in accordance with the original ideals of the United States of America.  The US was not created to be a Top Heavy, Powerful Central Government union.  It has reached the point that the Federal Government has made itself indispensable to the people through multiple dependence programs.  The States themselves cannot even survive without their Federal Grants.


This crap is INSANE.



I agree. But I doubt "strong states" are a solution to anything. They are weak for a reason: they aren't of sufficient body to shoulder anything. It s an illusion to think that smaller governance units will help - they will just lead to a lot of parallel bureaucracies jamming each other.



But like I said ... the Leftists here are all hunky dory for now, as the broad spectrum dependence programs are consistent with their Leftists Doctrine of "social justice".  OH yeah ... we need Universal Healthcare .. everyone has a "right" to healthcare.  Oh yeah ... employers should be forced to provide B.C. pills to all women who want them .. free of charge.  Oh yeah ... we need to raise the taxes on the rich, to "spread the wealth around" [ref B. Obama].  Yep .. they are all for it .... for now. 



Universal health care is at least indeed in the interests of the larger public. Unlike the other topics I mentioned above...

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 6:08PM #48
Bodean
Posts: 9,209

Mar 2, 2012 -- 1:50PM, CharikIeia wrote:


 In all likelihood, there is no talent for "government for the people, by the people" in either political camp in the USA, yes.





I"d have to agree with that .. yes.  Because the Government has already transitioned to "for the Government, by the Government".


The very people in Government are there for their own self interests, and really couldn't care less about the people.


As for specific issues ... I don't care what it is ... the principle of freedom and liberty stands.  When the Government starts dictating to the people, it has gone awry.


LuLu ... put it quite nicely.  Our Constitution was created to protect us from exactly what is happening right now.  It was created to limit the power of the Federal Government.  But over time, the Federal Government has amended the constitution, and added to it, with the approval of their political activists stooges in the SCOTUS, to the point now, that the Fed is Enemy #1 to the People of the United States of America.  The Fed itself is enemy #1 to the ideal that was once the USA.  It is spiraling towards the dictatorship that our "ruling elite" desire.


And while we have a bunch of sheep here cheering them on, it will only be a matter of time before those sheep are slaughtered by their own hero.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 7:33PM #49
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,126

We are about here:   Self-confessed conservatives, independents, TEA partiers  are self-servers. They do not know or will not accept the fact that government and politics are about the masses.  


Politics (from Greek πολιτικός, politikos "of, for, or relating to citizens")


is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions


he word politics comes from the Greek word Πολιτικά (politika),


modeled on Aristotle's "affairs of the city", the name of his book on


governing and governments, which was rendered in English mid-15


 century as Latinized "Polettiques".[4] Thus it became "politics" in


Middle English c. 1520


Because government is about the community, the city, state, nation – the Constitution built in rights to protect the individual. Government is about the Common, the general.  Every individual cannot get their exact desires, they must compromise some aspects of life for the community good.   This is not only applicable to government but  is also applied to families, businesses, and  any other group association.   


We as a nation rise or fall as a nation not individuals 

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2012 - 7:43PM #50
Druac
Posts: 11,264

Mar 2, 2012 -- 7:33PM, Fodaoson wrote:


We are about here:   Self-confessed conservatives, independents, TEA partiers  are self-servers. They do not know or will not accept the fact that government and politics are about the masses.  


Politics (from Greek πολιτικός, politikos "of, for, or relating to citizens")


is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions


he word politics comes from the Greek word Πολιτικά (politika),


modeled on Aristotle's "affairs of the city", the name of his book on


governing and governments, which was rendered in English mid-15


 century as Latinized "Polettiques".[4] Thus it became "politics" in


Middle English c. 1520


Because government is about the community, the city, state, nation – the Constitution built in rights to protect the individual. Government is about the Common, the general.  Every individual cannot get their exact desires, they must compromise some aspects of life for the community good.   This is not only applicable to government but  is also applied to families, businesses, and  any other group association.   


We as a nation rise or fall as a nation not individuals 




+1!

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
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We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
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"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
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