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Locked: Judea Pearl: Anti-Zionism is Racism
6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 2:16PM #41
vra
Posts: 7,467

Feb 22, 2012 -- 11:30AM, Miraj wrote:


We would disagree that East and West Germany were the same nation at the time they were unified.  However, I see Palestinians as part of Palestine, as is Israel.  Israel isn't going to be able to push all those folks into the sea, they're no enthusiastic about two states, so reunification of Palestine is the deal they will need to prepare for.


...why not ask why don't imported Jewish Israelis go back to where they came from?  Their history and geneology is more firmly established in other lands. They are different from the indigenous people of the region.




I'm obviously not habesor, but I'd just like to comment on these two items, taking the last one first. 


Did you say you grew up in Israel and moved to the States?  Should you also move back to a Palestinian area even if it's slightly removed from where you grew up?  Should all European-Americans leave and go "home"?  African-Americans as well? 


People move around, and my ancestors came from all over the globe with some of them being indigenous here (I'm a Me'tis).  The Middle East was historically a crossroads where different groups settled and eventually mixed in.  The general type of music and dance we often associate with being "Middle Eastern" appears to have been heavily influenced by the Gypsies coming out of India. 


I think you should just get used to the fact that Israel is where it is, it ain't gonna go away voluntarily, and move on.  If you want peace, work for it. 


As far as the one-state solution, would you advocate that for India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, since these three were reapportioned at roughly the same time Palestine was?  If a one-state solution is so desireable, why not advocate this for that region as well.  Bring back all the countries under the original umbrella state of India, and go with the majority.  Of course, since Indians and Hindus make up the majority, they would probably lead most of the time nationally, even though the current P.M. is a Sikh.  Are you willing to accept Muslems/Pakistanis/Bangladeshi from probably losing sovereignty except in local areas?  I'm interested in your response.     

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 3:10PM #42
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 22, 2012 -- 1:55PM, vra wrote:


"So what if we did?"?  Then I would have to say that you're using a double-standard by blaming Israelis when many Palestinians have done much the same if not worse at times.


As far as your claim of not stereotyping me, I would suggest that your posts clearly point that you have indeed done just that.  You know nothing about my background, and yet you have me on some sort of "nationalistic" bent.  Instead of admitting that maybe you jumped to a false conclusion, you come back with the above clap-trap. 


If you want to seriously discuss matters, then please do not jump to conclusions, read carefully what someone actually posts, and then respond in a manner that doesn't incorporate double-standards.  If you are not willing to do that, then any "discussion" with you would be fruitless.


Shalom




The true double standard is that when Jews complain of the harm done to them by Arabs, no one asks them what they did to help Arabs, but they always ask me what I've done to help Jews.  Ironically, I have done something to help Jews.


You know nothing of my background, yet you have stereotyped me, judged me, tried to steer me in the direction you think is best, and accused me on the basis of your stereotyping.  That's nothing I'm not used to, but at least try to get to know me first.


Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 3:26PM #43
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Miraj:


Lets see:


1. improved living standards


2. increased life expectancy


3. modern utilities including clean water and sewers


4. education


5. modern medical care


6. self government


7. employment and business opportunities


8. modern transportation systems


9. equality under law and rule of law


10. equality of sexes


do I really need to go on?


- - -


Let us agree that there is a lot of stereotyping which goes on here. Part of that is no doubt due to the fact that we all have incomplete information about each other. Since B'Net is set up to provide a modicum of privacy and personal protection we will never have complete information regarding each other and therefore, from time to time,  we will all make assumptions about each other which might not be completely accurate. The nice thing is that B'net affords us all the opportunity of responding and saying, I am sorry, you did not accurately represent me, or you did not accurately represent what I said or meant to say.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 3:28PM #44
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 22, 2012 -- 3:26PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj:


Lets see:


1. improved living standards


2. increased life expectancy


3. modern utilities including clean water and sewers


4. education


5. modern medical care


6. self government


7. employment and business opportunities


8. modern transportation systems


9. equality under law and rule of law


10. equality of sexes


do I really need to go on?




You didn't need to do that since it's a farce.


I'm curious.  You're not an Arab, you're not even an Israeli.  How do you believe you know more about being a Palestinian Israeli than a Palestinian Israeli does?  

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 3:46PM #45
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Smile I am omniscient, maybe? Smile


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 3:47PM #46
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 22, 2012 -- 3:46PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


I am omniscient, maybe?




Maybe even cute.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 4:12PM #47
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

Feb 22, 2012 -- 3:47PM, Miraj wrote:


Feb 22, 2012 -- 3:46PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


I am omniscient, maybe?




Maybe even cute.





I bet his wife thinks soWink

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 5:05PM #48
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,521

Challenging anti-Semitism must be rooted in opposing racism, not defending Israel


"It is truly regrettable that the center delegitimized its own work in this fashion, not least because we are at an important crossroads when it comes to ideas about anti-Semitism. For decades, the idea of anti-Semitism has been in the hands of people who have used it to defend terrible injustices by Israel. My criticism of the center rested on the principle that racism is wrong because of what it does, not because of whom it targets. I was pointing to the tension between nationalist opposition to racism and humanist opposition to racism. So long as the study of and opposition to anti-Semitism is rooted in Zionist nationalism rather than humanism, it is a project doomed to produce irreconcilable conflicts and great harms rather than more possibilities for justice. If, on the other hand, opposition to anti-Semitism is based on a sense of justice, then it is simply inconsistent to perpetuate injustice in Palestine on the basis of opposition to anti-Semitism. The two positions – opposition to anti-Semitism and active support for justice, freedom, and equality for the Palestinians – must, instead, accommodate and reinforce one another.


The Yale Institute for the Interdisciplinary Study of Anti-Semitism failed to do that. Rather, its work was the justification of Israeli violence, militarization, and dispossession, regardless of its human costs.  Its chief business was political, to rationalize support for Israel and its policies as a type of anti-racism, as absurd as that may seem. Much can be said about the center’s political agenda, but the core idea that it promoted, namely, that anti-Semitism is an attack on Israeli nationalism rather than an attack on human dignity, must continue to be challenged, even if the center is now closed."


mondoweiss.net/2011/06/challenging-anti-...


This article points out that the discussion of antiSemitism must be removed from the context of a discussion of Israeli policies, to have any validity.


Sherri

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 5:14PM #49
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Sherri


Have you compared your statements and positions to the working definition I provided?


Do you have any comments or questions as to how your statements or positions may or may not fit the definition? 


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 5:22PM #50
vra
Posts: 7,467

Feb 22, 2012 -- 3:10PM, Miraj wrote:


Feb 22, 2012 -- 1:55PM, vra wrote:


"So what if we did?"?  Then I would have to say that you're using a double-standard by blaming Israelis when many Palestinians have done much the same if not worse at times.


As far as your claim of not stereotyping me, I would suggest that your posts clearly point that you have indeed done just that.  You know nothing about my background, and yet you have me on some sort of "nationalistic" bent.  Instead of admitting that maybe you jumped to a false conclusion, you come back with the above clap-trap. 


If you want to seriously discuss matters, then please do not jump to conclusions, read carefully what someone actually posts, and then respond in a manner that doesn't incorporate double-standards.  If you are not willing to do that, then any "discussion" with you would be fruitless.


Shalom




The true double standard is that when Jews complain of the harm done to them by Arabs, no one asks them what they did to help Arabs, but they always ask me what I've done to help Jews.  Ironically, I have done something to help Jews.


You know nothing of my background, yet you have stereotyped me, judged me, tried to steer me in the direction you think is best, and accused me on the basis of your stereotyping.  That's nothing I'm not used to, but at least try to get to know me first.






And where exactly did I stereotype you?  Quote me.  Also, let me suggest that attempting to play the martyr is highly disingenuous as I have not slighted you in any way, but the reverse certainly hasn't been the case, and I quoted you to prove it.


Secondly, do you have any idea whatsoever about how Israel has helped Arabs, including Palestinians, in many different areas?  Are you interested?    


Let me give you one example here in the States even though it doesn't apply to Palestinians.  Jewish Federation flew many Muslem families from Kosovo during the ethnic cleansing there to the U.S., and my synagogue sponsored seven families for one year.  My wife and I brought food for them on a regular basis, and our synagogue was able to find them jobs.  Some of them stayed and live a few miles from where I'm at now, and some returned back to Kosovo.  Also, my synagogue has shared visitation with a nearby mosque, and we normally exchange about twice a year.  And this is just for starters.    


Does the above shock you? 


Let me ask you a few questions out of curiosity:  Where did you live in Israel?  When did you come here to the States?  When was the last time you returned, if at all?   

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