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Locked: Judea Pearl: Anti-Zionism is Racism
6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 5:55PM #31
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 21, 2012 -- 5:45PM, LeahOne wrote:


With the exception that I'd have said 'the "leaders" of the Arab nations which invaded nascent Israel' as opposed to simply 'Arabs' - which is too broad to be at all accurate - I pretty much agree with what Rocket said. 


It isn't ONLY an Israeli/Palestinian situation to be resolved.  There were actually MORE people stripped of their land and homes and booted out of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc, etc as OFFICAL GOVERNMENT POLICY of those regimes, than fled or were driven out of what became Israel.


It is a lie to pretend that the only refugees whose remuneration needs to eb addressed are the Palestinian ones.  I see nothing, Miraj, in your putative solution to cover the people who are the majority ethnic group in Israel today, the Sephardi and Mizrachi Jews disowned by the nations who attacked israel.  They weren't 'migrants' - they were citizens of many centuries' residence in those lands...and all of it meant NOTHING to corrupt "leaders" of Arab nations.


So, what're you proposing to do for my relatives?




I'm discussing the one-state solution between Israel and Palestine.  Your relatives need to decide what they want to do about what happened to them.  My family has decided what we're doing and no one here has done anything to help us.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 6:20PM #32
vra
Posts: 7,467

Feb 21, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Miraj wrote:


I'm an Israeli refugee.  I got citizenship in exchange for my family having lost everything to the state, their homes, businesses, possessions, everything.  All that was left was the clothes on their backs.  Why was Jordan, Egypt or Lebanon responsible for that?  Why is it their obligation to take in those who were pushed out?  That obligation wasn't imposed against Germany, or any other European country where the Holocaust started and was imported to North Africa and the Middle East.  Israel needs to take responsibilty for what it did, not transfer its sins to others.  Enough of that has been done already...


You support ethnic nationalism and I don't.  It doesn't matter.  Arabs outnumber Jews and the gap between their numbers will continue to  widen.  It won't even take two decades for the transition to a single state to occur.  If Israel was smart, it would make plans to move this forward asap.  




I don't hink you read very carefully what I had previously written.  I don't know your situation, but I will admit that there's a good chance your family may have been discriminated against. 


Not that two wrongs make a right, but did your family put up a fuss when the Yemenites kicked all Jews out of the country?  Did they put up a fuss when Arafat & Co, said they would "drive the Jews into the sea"?  Did they put up a fuss when we were not allowed by the Jordanians to visit our holy sites?  Did you put up a fuss when the P.A. announced that no Jews will be allowed to live in the W.B.?  Did you put up a fuss when both Hamas and Hezbollah launched roughly 14,000 missiles and mortar shells against mostly civilian Israeli targets since 2000?  Did you put up a fuss when militant Islamists used bombs against Israeli civilians?  Did you put up a fuss when every time Israelis pulled back from the Gaza and the WB, they were "rewarded" with even more attacks?  And what about the Palestinian "sins", or is it that you think only Israelis can "sin"? 


And if you had actually carefully read what I had previously posted, you might have noticed that I said that I would actually have preferred a one-state solution-- but that it just ain't gonna happen on any kind of voluntary basis in the short haul.  And Arabs within Israel do not outnumber Jews. 


Finally, please read what I write and not just stereotype me.  You might also actually check out my avatar-- it ain't there for looks.  



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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 6:32PM #33
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Arabs in Israel and in the disputed territories also do not out number Jews. Arabs would only out number Jews if the "refugees" were to flood the land. Of course, that would also destroy the economy and send the place back into the dark ages. However, since that is the plan, I guess those proposing it will not be too disappointed. Never forget, those proposing the "one state solution" really and truly are anti-Israel.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 6:33PM #34
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 21, 2012 -- 6:20PM, vra wrote:


I don't hink you read very carefully what I had previously written.  I don't know your situation, but I will admit that there's a good chance your family may have been discriminated against. 


Not that two wrongs make a right, but did your family put up a fuss when the Yemenites kicked all Jews out of the country?  Did they put up a fuss when Arafat & Co, said they would "drive the Jews into the sea"?  Did they put up a fuss when we were not allowed by the Jordanians to visit our holy sites?  Did you put up a fuss when the P.A. announced that no Jews will be allowed to live in the W.B.?  Did you put up a fuss when both Hamas and Hezbollah launched roughly 14,000 missiles and mortar shells against mostly civilian Israeli targets since 2000?  Did you put up a fuss when militant Islamists used bombs against Israeli civilians?  Did you put up a fuss when every time Israelis pulled back from the Gaza and the WB, they were "rewarded" with even more attacks?  And what about the Palestinian "sins", or is it that you think only Israelis can "sin"? 


So what if we did?


And if you had actually carefully read what I had previously posted, you might have noticed that I said that I would actually have preferred a one-state solution-- but that it just ain't gonna happen on any kind of voluntary basis in the short haul.  And Arabs within Israel do not outnumber Jews. 


Finally, please read what I write and not just stereotype me.  You might also actually check out my avatar-- it ain't there for looks.  

I'm sure I'm not stereotyping you.  





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 7:10AM #35
habesor
Posts: 6,223

Miraj,


I haven't read most of this thread until now because I disagree with Judea Pearl's position. In my opinion though there are a lot of anti-Semites (i.e. anti-Jews) who allow their Jew hatred to express itself in anti-Zionism, there is no reason yet, to automatically connect the two.


Having read the rest of this thread now, I would like to say, Miraj, that in regard to your position on the one-State solution, it seems to me that you are being intellectually dishonest with the rest of us and/or perhaps with yourself as well.


For instance, when asked where has a one state solution worked you cited (admittedly off the top of your head) German reunification. So for you when two parts of the same nation (the German nation) reunite after forcefully being cut off from one another by outside powers, that is equivalent  to the uniting of two different peoples or nations into one state. Against this rather odd German example of a one state solution, we have the splitting up of the Czech and Slovak nations, the explosive separation of several nations of the former Yugoslavia, the increased dissension between the Flemish and Walloon peoples  of Belgium, the forthcoming possible Scottish break away from the UK (along with the previous Irish withdrawal) and so on. Unlike your German example where two parts of the same nation unite, these were all examples of a state containing two nations breaking up along national lines; certainly a situation far more similar to the Arab-Israeli circumstance than was your German example.


But, we really don't have to go outside of the Middle East. Miraj, if it is such a wonderful solution for the Israelis and Palestinians to unite into one state, why can't the Palestinians unite among themselves. In fact, why do the Palestinians absolutely reject a one-state solution with the Jordanians. After all we are not talking about two separate peoples here. The Jordanians are 80% Palestinians and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan sits on 100% Palestinian land.


So, if the one-state solution is so bound to bring on peace between the two peoples, why won't the Palestinians unite among themselves into one-state; first between Gaza and the West Bank and then between the West Bank and the East Bank.


Habesor


PS- I interpreted your answer to the question about risking the entire civilian air fleet to rescue a Jewish community to be that it would be too expensive. This is pretty much the answer that was given in World War Two about rescuing the European Jews, and was more or less always the answer in these situations until the State of Israel came into being. 




[no changes, just hit the wrong button]

Moderated by Miraj on Feb 22, 2012 - 11:33AM
Habesor
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 11:30AM #36
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 22, 2012 -- 7:10AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj,


I haven't read most of this thread until now because I disagree with Judea Pearl's position. In my opinion though there are a lot of anti-Semites (i.e. anti-Jews) who allow their Jew hatred to express itself in anti-Zionism, there is no reason yet, to automatically connect the two.


Having read the rest of this thread now, I would like to say, Miraj, that in regard to your position on the one-State solution, it seems to me that you are being intellectually dishonest with the rest of us and/or perhaps with yourself as well.


No surprise.  That the patent response I get for rejecting with Israeli nationalism.


For instance, when asked where has a one state solution worked you cited (admittedly off the top of your head) German reunification. So for you when two parts of the same nation (the German nation) reunite after forcefully being cut off from one another by outside powers, that is equivalent  to the uniting of two different peoples or nations into one state. Against this rather odd German example of a one state solution, we have the splitting up of the Czech and Slovak nations, the explosive separation of several nations of the former Yugoslavia, the increased dissension between the Flemish and Walloon peoples  of Belgium, the forthcoming possible Scottish break away from the UK (along with the previous Irish withdrawal) and so on. Unlike your German example where two parts of the same nation unite, these were all examples of a state containing two nations breaking up along national lines; certainly a situation far more similar to the Arab-Israeli circumstance than was your German example.


We would disagree that East and West Germany were the same nation at the time they were unified.  However, I see Palestinians as part of Palestine, as is Israel.  Israel isn't going to be able to push all those folks into the sea, they're no enthusiastic about two states, so reunification of Palestine is the deal they will need to prepare for.


But, we really don't have to go outside of the Middle East. Miraj, if it is such a wonderful solution for the Israelis and Palestinians to unite into one state, why can't the Palestinians unite among themselves. In fact, why do the Palestinians absolutely reject a one-state solution with the Jordanians. After all we are not talking about two separate peoples here. The Jordanians are 80% Palestinians and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan sits on 100% Palestinian land.


So, if the one-state solution is so bound to bring on peace between the two peoples, why won't the Palestinians unite among themselves into one-state; first between Gaza and the West Bank and then between the West Bank and the East Bank.


If you appreciate that logic, why not ask why don't imported Jewish Israelis go back to where they came from?  Their history and geneology is more firmly established in other lands. They are different from the indigenous people of the region.  If that's what you're basing your reasoning on, then you must agree that resettlement would be best for the foreign elements in Palestine.


Habesor


PS- I interpreted your answer to the question about risking the entire civilian air fleet to rescue a Jewish community to be that it would be too expensive. This is pretty much the answer that was given in World War Two about rescuing the European Jews, and was more or less always the answer in these situations until the State of Israel came into being. 



Of course, you pegged me there, not that it bears any resemblance to what I actually said, but that's not important as long as it's convenient.







Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 11:53AM #37
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Miraj


You wrote:


Of course, you pegged me there, not that it bears any resemblance to what I actually said, but that's not important as long as it's convenient.


Since both Habesor and I understood your words in the exact same way, and since you are indicating that what we understood was not what you meant to say, perhaps you would be so kind as to clarify your position.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 11:57AM #38
ffb
Posts: 2,356

Patrick, you wrote "Is Zionism simply a belief or movement that involves Jewish desire for a state or for a "racially pure" state or separation from other nations? "


A state, yes. A "racially pure" state, or separation? No.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 1:01PM #39
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Feb 22, 2012 -- 11:53AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


You wrote:


Of course, you pegged me there, not that it bears any resemblance to what I actually said, but that's not important as long as it's convenient.


Since both Habesor and I understood your words in the exact same way, and since you are indicating that what we understood was not what you meant to say, perhaps you would be so kind as to clarify your position.




I didn't take a position.  You attributed one to me.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 1:55PM #40
vra
Posts: 7,467

Feb 21, 2012 -- 6:33PM, Miraj wrote:


Feb 21, 2012 -- 6:20PM, vra wrote:


I don't hink you read very carefully what I had previously written.  I don't know your situation, but I will admit that there's a good chance your family may have been discriminated against. 


Not that two wrongs make a right, but did your family put up a fuss when the Yemenites kicked all Jews out of the country?  Did they put up a fuss when Arafat & Co, said they would "drive the Jews into the sea"?  Did they put up a fuss when we were not allowed by the Jordanians to visit our holy sites?  Did you put up a fuss when the P.A. announced that no Jews will be allowed to live in the W.B.?  Did you put up a fuss when both Hamas and Hezbollah launched roughly 14,000 missiles and mortar shells against mostly civilian Israeli targets since 2000?  Did you put up a fuss when militant Islamists used bombs against Israeli civilians?  Did you put up a fuss when every time Israelis pulled back from the Gaza and the WB, they were "rewarded" with even more attacks?  And what about the Palestinian "sins", or is it that you think only Israelis can "sin"? 


So what if we did?


And if you had actually carefully read what I had previously posted, you might have noticed that I said that I would actually have preferred a one-state solution-- but that it just ain't gonna happen on any kind of voluntary basis in the short haul.  And Arabs within Israel do not outnumber Jews. 


Finally, please read what I write and not just stereotype me.  You might also actually check out my avatar-- it ain't there for looks.  

I'm sure I'm not stereotyping you.  









"So what if we did?"?  Then I would have to say that you're using a double-standard by blaming Israelis when many Palestinians have done much the same if not worse at times.


As far as your claim of not stereotyping me, I would suggest that your posts clearly point that you have indeed done just that.  You know nothing about my background, and yet you have me on some sort of "nationalistic" bent.  Instead of admitting that maybe you jumped to a false conclusion, you come back with the above clap-trap. 


If you want to seriously discuss matters, then please do not jump to conclusions, read carefully what someone actually posts, and then respond in a manner that doesn't incorporate double-standards.  If you are not willing to do that, then any "discussion" with you would be fruitless.


Shalom

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