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Switch to Forum Live View Meat Grown in Lab, No Animals Required
6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 7:36PM #41
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Feb 20, 2012 -- 6:52PM, Abner1 wrote:


Mytmouse wrote:


> Good news for cows...


Depends on how you look at it.  If this gets to the point of being economically viable, or even cheaper than meat from animals ... a lot of food animals will go near-extinct.  There would still be a few for those people who want to eat the traditionally made meat, of course, but the overall result would be far fewer of those animals.


Less animal suffering because there are less animals.  That's an interesting conundrum.




No, Abner. I don't think that you are looking at this correctly.


Animals don't become extinct because humans being leave them alone....animals either become extinct because human beings over-hunt them because of one or more of an animal's body parts that they want to exploit....or because of natural causes.


But if humans beings started to leave most meat-producing animals alone, their population would shrink because of less breeding because of less demand for these animals, but that doesn't mean that the remaining population of these animals would go extinct.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 7:44PM #42
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Things have been killing and eating other things since the world began. There's no "morals" about it, and animals certianly don't give a shit. (Although, some of them eat that too.)



Animals don't need morals.  They go by instincts.  Morals are for people who have a conscience. 

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 7:49PM #43
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Feb 20, 2012 -- 8:52PM, mainecaptain wrote:


I would rather have animals go extinct, then have them suffer the way they do to provide meat. They are not here to for  us.


We just exploit the fact that non human animals can not fight back against such a destructive animals as the human animal.




Mainecaptain, I agree with you in not wanting animals to suffer the way that they do, but what makes you say that the animals are not here for us? 


Feb 20, 2012 -- 10:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


Good point, Mainecaptain.  If you stop to think about it, of course other sentient beings are not here for human benefit.  Everything evolved to fit a suitable ecological niche, and that has nothing to do with human desires.



Once again, I'm curious as to why you and Mainecaptain are saying that animals are not here for human benefit.


Feb 20, 2012 -- 10:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


And, like you, I'd much rather cows (or pigs or sheep or even chickens) went extinct than that they continued to be so cruelly exploited.  However, I don't think that would happen, because there would always be people with pet pigs or chickens, or some family farm somewhere with Bossie the beloved family cow, living out her retirement in the pasture.


In any case, domesticated animals are not 'natural' in any sense to begin with. 




Solfeggio, I don't mean this with any disrespect, but isn't that a picture of a kitty cat in your avatar? And I'm guessing that he or she is your pet. Wink 

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 7:50PM #44
Ebon
Posts: 10,148

Feb 21, 2012 -- 7:36PM, Ed2 wrote:

Animals don't become extinct because humans being leave them alone....animals either become extinct because human beings over-hunt them because of one or more of an animal's body parts that they want to exploit....or because of natural causes.



Animals do sometimes go extinct without human intervention. Usually, it's because of failure to adapt to a changing environment.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 7:57PM #45
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Feb 21, 2012 -- 7:50PM, Ebon wrote:


Feb 21, 2012 -- 7:36PM, Ed2 wrote:

Animals don't become extinct because humans being leave them alone....animals either become extinct because human beings over-hunt them because of one or more of an animal's body parts that they want to exploit....or because of natural causes.



Animals do sometimes go extinct without human intervention. Usually, it's because of failure to adapt to a changing environment.




But, Ebon, if that changing environment was because of nature, then the extinction would be because of natural causes. However though, if a changing environment is a man-made phenomenon, then in that case it would be because of lack of human intervention. Or at least that's how I look at it.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 8:09PM #46
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Feb 21, 2012 -- 2:23AM, rabello wrote:


Article doesn't say if they're using embryonic stem cells or adult stem cells.  Embryonic are, of course, harder to get, at least on the donor cow.


The most interesting parts in the article, for me are these:



They are off-white and resemble strips of calamari in appearance. These strips will be mixed with blood and artificially grown fat to produce a hamburger by the autumn.




Yuck



I haven't read the article that Ebon provided yet, but that leaves out the Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses.


Feb 21, 2012 -- 2:23AM, rabello wrote:


David Steele, who is president of Earthsave Canada, said that the same benefits could be achieved if people ate less meat.


it is pretty clear to me that plant-based alternatives... have substantial environmental and probably animal welfare advantages over synthetic meat," he said.


Dr Steele, who is also a molecular biologist, said he was also concerned that unhealthily high levels of antibiotics and antifungal chemicals would be needed to stop the synthetic meat from rotting.




Wisdom




Oh, no! Not antibiotics and antifungal chemicals again. Frown

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2012 - 8:47PM #47
solfeggio
Posts: 10,753

Ed2 -


What makes you think that other sentient beings ARE here for human benefit?  My take on all of this is that everything exists for its own sake.


The cat in my avatar was our beloved Beatrix, adopted from the RSPCA seventeen years ago as a kitten, who lived a highly satisfactory life with our family until her death a few months ago.  She was but one of many cats we have rescued over the years.


We are members of our local Cats Protection Society and the RSPCA, and in connection with them we take in stray and homeless cats and try to rehome them. 


The cats don't exist for our benefit, although the original domesticated cats surely did, as the ancient Egyptians used them to keep rodents out of their grain stores.


Our cats that live with us are our friends.  We don't own them.  If cats had not been domesticated, there would not be cats around to rescue today.  We feel that they have as much right to live out their lives as any other animal on this planet.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 12:06AM #48
rabello
Posts: 29,815

Feb 21, 2012 -- 6:07PM, arielg wrote:


Feb 21, 2012 -- 3:18PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Feb 21, 2012 -- 2:57PM, arielg wrote:


Eating meat implies killing the animal, seeing the life go out of them, feeling the blood pouring from the animal, witnesing the pain. It is all an integral part of eating it.


...


 Now we are going to "grow" meat. We are going to get the so called advantages of eating meat, but avoid the whole proces behind it. It will be just a clumsy imitation, but those who are so hung up in the taste of meat will be able to feel a little less guilty.



Could you elaborate where the guilt IS, when the meat is a fully synthetic product?


Why would the causal chain that you so visually sketch in the first quoted paragraph be valid any more?




The guilt is in the present  dishonest  way of consuming the meat.  In  wanting  the flavor  or  the proteins, but not wanting  to accept everything that comes with  it.  That is why the attempt   to  "grow" the meat, so as to  avoid all the umpleasant  aspects. If there was nothing wrong with the consumption of meat, we would accept  all that  is involved in getting it ,  just like in getting  an apple.


With the manufactured meat, the guilt will be greaty reduced, although something   will  linger in the memory. 


My objection to it is the same objection I have to any imitation.   If  there is something wrong with chocolate, or coffee, or  sugar, let's just not eat it. Period.  Imitations are cheap and many times are just as harmful or more than the real product.  There is a certain harmony in the elments of  natural products that imitations will never achieve.


So, if there are problems with meat that  some people do not want to face, just stop eating the stuff.








Brave new world, arielg!    Testtube Hamburgers won't make people think of killing an animal but, depending on they type of stem cell they take from a living cow, Testtube Hamburgers will make people think of "harvesting" living cells. 


If it's embryonic stem cells they'll have to load the maiden cow with hormones to stimulate the follicles, and then use their straws and tubes to suck out eggs ready to be smitten.  That can't be painless for the guinea pig cow.  So maybe Testtube Hamburgers will make people think of sucking blood.  Who knows?

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 12:07AM #49
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Cows and chickens and dogs and even cats are here for humans.  rodents are here for other carnivors.  mosquitos are here for bats and starlings, fish are here for sharks.


Animals are here for us and we are here for each other. 


If a animal becomes extinct because of too many predators or inadequate protection that is of natural causes. 

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2012 - 12:39AM #50
rabello
Posts: 29,815

Feb 22, 2012 -- 12:07AM, Erey wrote:


Cows and chickens and dogs and even cats are here for humans.  rodents are here for other carnivors.  mosquitos are here for bats and starlings, fish are here for sharks.




On what do you base that belief?


Feb 22, 2012 -- 12:07AM, Erey wrote:


Animals are here for us and we are here for each other. 




You appear to be talking about who gets to eat whom, so are you advocating human cannibalism when you say "we are here for each other"


Feb 22, 2012 -- 12:07AM, Erey wrote:


If a animal becomes extinct because of too many predators or inadequate protection that is of natural causes. 




Do you think the destruction of habitat in clear-cut forests for gargantuan cattle ranches is a "natural" cause of extinction?  Or worldwide poaching of protected and unprotected species?   Did you hear about the 300+ elephants (already endangered) killed within the past month, alone, in a nature preserve in Kenya?  If elephants do, indeed, go extinct, would you say that's natural?  It's happening to siberian tigers, to mountain gorillas, even chimpanzees.  Would you say the loss of any or all those species is "natural" because animals are "here for us"?

Black Lives Matter
Muslim Lives Matter
There is no such thing as "illegals"
LGBT Lives Matter
Poor Women's Lives Matter

"If we jump too quickly to the universal formulation, 'all lives matter,' then we miss the fact that black people have not yet been included in the idea of 'all lives.'"

--Professor Judith Butler
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