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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 11:32PM #61
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,914

Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:26PM, Ken wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 10:22PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


I have no rich grandmother, or any other relatives still alive yet I am an agnostic and definitely not an atheist.




Are you a strong, weak, pragmatic or theistic agnostic?




The word means 'don't know' in regard to the existance of God. There are other words that are more specific without that gerrymander.



The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 11:44PM #62
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:32PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:26PM, Ken wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 10:22PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


I have no rich grandmother, or any other relatives still alive yet I am an agnostic and definitely not an atheist.




Are you a strong, weak, pragmatic or theistic agnostic?




The word means 'don't know' in regard to the existance of God. There are other words that are more specific without that gerrymander.



I know what it means. I was asking you what kind of agnostic you are.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 7:19AM #63
Abner1
Posts: 6,437

FatherOblivion wrote:


> Nobody 'knows' except the dead, and they aren't telling.


Depends on which definition of the word 'know' one is using (Webster lists a half-dozen or so definitions of the word, many of which can easily apply to someone knowing whether or not there are any gods without being dead first).  No doubt you have the One True Definition of the word 'know' in your pocket and anyone who uses any of the other meanings of the word is an idiot in your eyes, but I'm just not arrogant enough to go around telling people who claim to know that they don't know, they only think they know, just because they're using one of the other definitions of the word.


www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/know


> If you seriously want to argue this point, you need to do so effectively. All you have


> presented is opinion and innuendo in support of your opinion, and it doesn't fly.


I have the same opinion of your claims.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 7:21AM #64
Abner1
Posts: 6,437

FatherOblivion wrote:


> There is no reason for me to give you a source that you will not check. It is fairly easy


> to go to the website of either institution and make an inquiry using e-mail with


> the English department of either one.


You either can't or won't support any of your claims with a link, a quote, or even a name.  So be it; I don't intend to start emailing random people to ask them if they're the unnamed person an unnamed person on the internet was referring to in an internet argument.  Quite simply, your arguments are not worth bothering other people.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:03AM #65
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,914

Feb 28, 2012 -- 7:19AM, Abner1 wrote:


FatherOblivion wrote:


> Nobody 'knows' except the dead, and they aren't telling.


Depends on which definition of the word 'know' one is using (Webster lists a half-dozen or so definitions of the word, many of which can easily apply to someone knowing whether or not there are any gods without being dead first).  No doubt you have the One True Definition of the word 'know' in your pocket and anyone who uses any of the other meanings of the word is an idiot in your eyes, but I'm just not arrogant enough to go around telling people who claim to know that they don't know, they only think they know, just because they're using one of the other definitions of the word.


www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/know


> If you seriously want to argue this point, you need to do so effectively. All you have


> presented is opinion and innuendo in support of your opinion, and it doesn't fly.


I have the same opinion of your claims.




I use the standard definition used by philosophers and theologians as I learned it during my years in Seminary. If you want to be correctly understood, then use the standard definitions. If you don't, or are unsure of what you really want to say, then go ahead and fuzz the definitions. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:08AM #66
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,914

Feb 28, 2012 -- 7:21AM, Abner1 wrote:


FatherOblivion wrote:


> There is no reason for me to give you a source that you will not check. It is fairly easy


> to go to the website of either institution and make an inquiry using e-mail with


> the English department of either one.


You either can't or won't support any of your claims with a link, a quote, or even a name.  So be it; I don't intend to start emailing random people to ask them if they're the unnamed person an unnamed person on the internet was referring to in an internet argument.  Quite simply, your arguments are not worth bothering other people.




That is quite rich from someone who claims as a source 'something I read'! Thank you for the early morning chuckle!


Just ask if there is anyone there willing to give the philosophical definition, it is quite easy. I am confident that regardless of who in particular you may ask, you will get the same definition because it is a standard definition so that there is no misunderstanding such as you have been promulgating here.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:12AM #67
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,914

Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:44PM, Ken wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:32PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:26PM, Ken wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 10:22PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


I have no rich grandmother, or any other relatives still alive yet I am an agnostic and definitely not an atheist.




Are you a strong, weak, pragmatic or theistic agnostic?




The word means 'don't know' in regard to the existance of God. There are other words that are more specific without that gerrymander.



I know what it means. I was asking you what kind of agnostic you are.




None of those four words as I understand them fits my belief system. As I said in a prior post, nobody truly knows, although I have beliefs. I can make a subjective claim to knowledge, but that would not be suitable for the discussion, and is also irrelevant.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:27AM #68
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Feb 28, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:44PM, Ken wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:32PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:26PM, Ken wrote:


Feb 27, 2012 -- 10:22PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


I have no rich grandmother, or any other relatives still alive yet I am an agnostic and definitely not an atheist.




Are you a strong, weak, pragmatic or theistic agnostic?




The word means 'don't know' in regard to the existance of God. There are other words that are more specific without that gerrymander.



I know what it means. I was asking you what kind of agnostic you are.




None of those four words as I understand them fits my belief system.



Agnosticism isn't a belief system. It's a position on a single philosophical issue. Strong, weak, pragmatic, theistic, and atheistic are the standard types of agnosticism. For example, if you believe that it is impossible in principle to ascertain whether or not at least one god exists, you are a strong agnostic. A weak agnostic, on the other hand, holds that it is not necessarily impossible to ascertain whether or not at least one god exists, but that nobody has done so yet.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 10:28AM #69
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,162

If yu have consulted Webster’s dictionary and have problems with FO meaning  of “ I do not know” and “agnostic” then you cannot , or more probably will not, understand English.  Some thought on  agnostic/agnosticism:


 Thomas Henry Huxley defined the term:


Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle... Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable.


Etymology


Agnostic (from  Ancient Greek ἀ- (a-), meaning "without", and γνῶσις (gnōsis), meaning "knowledge") was used by Huxley in a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1869[] to describe his philosophy which rejects all claims of spiritual or mystical knowledge. Early  Christian  church leaders used the Greek word gnosis (knowledge) to describe "spiritual knowledge." Agnosticism is not to be confused with religious views opposing the ancient religious movement of Gnosticism in particular; Huxley used the term in a broader, more abstract sense. Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry. In recent years, scientific literature dealing with neuroscience and psychology has used the word to mean "not knowable".


On BN agnosticisms usually is used  in reference to spiritual or religious matters, but  it can  refer to any kind of knowledge.    For example, on life on other planets, I am agnostic. I have no knowledge of life there but it may exist.  There are theories of life but no physical evidence

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2012 - 11:59AM #70
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Agnosticism isn't a belief system. It's a position on a single philosophical issue. Strong, weak, pragmatic, theistic, and atheistic are the standard types of agnosticism. For example, if you believe that it is impossible in principle to ascertain whether or not at least one god exists, you are a strong agnostic. A weak agnostic, on the other hand, holds that it is not necessarily impossible to ascertain whether or not at least one god exists, but that nobody has done so yet.


 


A position is a belief.  Agnosticism does not have a position.  So, it cannot be strong, weak, pragmatic or whatever. You just  said it: agnosticism isn't a belief system. You cannot qualify something that does not exist.

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