Once again, if you choose to ignore oppression and persecution simply because you can't pin it on the Jews, well, that's really your problem. There is plenty of documentation of both PA mistreatment of Christian Palestinians (and for that matter Muslim Palestinians as well) and you choose to ignore it. That says a whole lot more about you than it does about persecuted Christians anywhere.
You are wrong. I didn't expect you to believe a single word of that article.
Habesor
Habesor,
How dare a Palestinian be a Christian and experience personally the ethnic cleansing in their homes in the OPT and have an opinion they write about the ethnic cleansing and even dare to back it up with sources?
And that is most certainly not "the way" of those writing propaganda pieces for The Jerusalem Post.
Israel can attack them, unlawfully jail them, and even take their lives, but they can never take their human dignity or hope away. Hope springs eternal, especially in places injustice seemingly reigns. How do we fathom such as that?
Perhaps you haven't heard about the actual situation of Christians in the PA because you don't offer a sympathetic ear to your fellow Christians. Here is a report by a Muslim reporter on the situation of Christians in the PA. I'm sure that you will reject it out of hand because it doesn't place total blame on Israel. If you have the intellectual curiosity to do so, read it to the very end where the reporter discusses the Christian leaders.
You referred me to an article written by an Arab Muslim journalist who works for The Jerusalem Post, to address what is happening to Christians in Bethlehem.
Why should I expect he would say anything other than what he said, as he, as expected, blamed Muslims for everything? Why would I believe him over what Palestinian Christians say?
I, along with 50,000 others, receive regular newsletters from a Palestinian Christian and American citizen from Beit Sahour, who teaches in Bethlehem.
And saving the best for last, and I am about to stop posting and get some sleep, here is what Mazin Qumsiyeh, a Palestinian Christian Freedom Rider, a present day Gandhi (of many present day Palestinian Gandhis, Christians and Muslims alike) just said about Bethlehem in December.
"Below is a program of selected activities in the Bethlehem area starting tomorrow and over the Holidays (your participation if around would be appreciated). I also included a link to the best and most detailed account of the colonial destruction in the Bethlehem area. The district of Bethlehem was burdened with over 45,000 refugees denied their inalienable rights to return to their homes and lands from which they were removed in 1948. Israeli colonial settlement activity since 1967 meant that 180,000 Bethlehemites have access to only 13% of the original district size. And since 2002, Jerusalem was isolated from Bethlehem which resulted in the destruction of the economy of both metropolitan areas for their native people. Contrary to the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel continues to expand colonial settlements and has recently approved thousands of Jewish only homes to be built on Palestinian lands of Bethlehem.
We native Christian and Muslim Palestinians remember that Jesus, the Aramaic speaking Palestinian born in this town spoke truth to powers and asked us to be a "light unto the world". Join us in working for Peace and Justice this Christmas and the New Year.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to ALL
Cartoons for Christmas showing what Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) are thinking about
To be honest, I'm not sure who your government is. If it is the USA, well, the State Department issues a yearly report on the freedom and democracy world wide and Israel has been criticized in this report; criticisms which have been gleefully reported on this forum by Israel's critics. If your government is the Israeli government, then as we both know there is plenty of cricism by Knesset members as well as the Israeli media. If your government is the PA, well you certainly have not learned to put the bucket down where you are. In fact most third party critics of Israel seem to be able to put the bucket down only in Israel.
So, here we are talking about the oppression of Christians and it seems that the only place where this is relevant is when someone can point to some real or alleged injustice or ill-treatment of Christians within Israel. It seems to me that it is not Israelis or even sympathizers with Israel who have a problem placing their buckets.
Habesor
It seems after all this time, I'm still an enigma. What's a girl to do?
"I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being, first and foremost, and as such I'm for whomever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole." ~ Malcolm X Proud supporter of the One-State Solution for Palestine
To be honest, I'm not sure who your government is. If it is the USA, well, the State Department issues a yearly report on the freedom and democracy world wide and Israel has been criticized in this report; criticisms which have been gleefully reported on this forum by Israel's critics. If your government is the Israeli government, then as we both know there is plenty of cricism by Knesset members as well as the Israeli media. If your government is the PA, well you certainly have not learned to put the bucket down where you are. In fact most third party critics of Israel seem to be able to put the bucket down only in Israel.
So, here we are talking about the oppression of Christians and it seems that the only place where this is relevant is when someone can point to some real or alleged injustice or ill-treatment of Christians within Israel. It seems to me that it is not Israelis or even sympathizers with Israel who have a problem placing their buckets.
Perhaps you haven't heard about the actual situation of Christians in the PA because you don't offer a sympathetic ear to your fellow Christians. Here is a report by a Muslim reporter on the situation of Christians in the PA. I'm sure that you will reject it out of hand because it doesn't place total blame on Israel. If you have the intellectual curiosity to do so, read it to the very end where the reporter discusses the Christian leaders.
We are obviously talking about other posters on this forum and not ourselves. I'm sure that you can point to a democracy without any deficiencies as an example of the perfect democracy that you think Israel ought to be. I personally would like Israel to be that perfect democracy. Unfortunately the combination of human imperfection and the fact that we are engaged in a conflict with some of our neighbors have meant that our political system is not a perfect democracy. However, when our neighbors engage in warfare (domestic or between states) their actions tend to make the IDF look like a bunch of Mother Theresas. And when these same neighbors set up what they call democracies, well, by comparison, the flaws in ours don't look that catastrophic after all.
I don't expect perfection, but I do expect a modicum of honesty from my government. Part of the problem is, apologists for israel have a habit of comparing Israel to nations that are worse because comparing it to nations that are better damages the agenda. Isreal's government does better when compared to nationalist groups because it's becoming more like them. The arguement about the bad neighbors is a ploy, too, in that apologists often lack the fortitude to demand that Israel take responsibility for its part in the conflict. They're too busy concentrating on cosmetics.
Miraj, none of the above excuses injustices that happen as a result of imperfections in the Israeli democratic political system. We Israelis should make every effort to eliminate those flaws. On the other hand it seems to me that rather than improving the State of Israel there is another agenda in play and it is not to improve the State but to destroy it. Critics who can only find fault with Israel and ignore or deny far worse faults in Israel's neighbors, do not, it seems to me, have Israel's best interests at heart. Rather they are using their criticisms of Israel to work against the interests of the State of Israel and all of its citizens. Some of these are so intent on their opposition to the existance of the State of Israel that they will even ignore or deny the oppression of their co-religionists among Israel's enemies just so they can be righteously or self-righteously be critical of Israel. But, as I wrote above, I am not talking about you or me.
Criticism is a civic duty, my friend. It helps to shine light on the flaws and to spark discussion on how to make improvements. As Booker T. Washington is famous for saying, "Put down your bucket where you are". In this case, it means, if your bucket is in Israel, your vote in Israel, your representatives are in Israel, your money is in Israel, etc., your chances are better for making change in Israel, because your bucket isn't in Egypt or Syria, or Jordan.
Not that you can't comment on events in Egypt or Syria, or Jordan; you can and you should. But, they don't really care what you think. Salafis don't really care what you think, terrorists don't really care what you think. It's great if your own government, in contrast, does care what you think. It's your job to let them know what you think, even if they don't like it.
"I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being, first and foremost, and as such I'm for whomever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole." ~ Malcolm X Proud supporter of the One-State Solution for Palestine
After the 1948 war there were about 90,000 Christians in Jordanian controlled territory and about 35,000 in Israeli territory. Today their are about 30,000-40,000 Christians on the West Bank and about 150,000 in the State of Israel. Israel has undergone quite a bit of immigration since its establishment and though some of these have been Christian and Muslim, the vast majority have been Jews. That is why the relative percentages are as you presented them. But if there is any ethnic cleansing going on, the actual statistics point to the Palestinians, and the Jordanians before them, as the culprits. Of course, since you are intent on blaming Israel for everything, even at the expense of your Christian co-religionists well.... be my guest.
Habesor
Habesor,
It is not just me primarily blaming the Israeli Occupation for the declining Christian population, it is Christians in Palestine/Israel saying that, as I think I demonstrated by their Kairos Palestine document. And you see more about what Christians there think on the Christian Come And See website in Nazareth.
That should be what is most relevant, the views of Christians in Israel and the OPT on this issue.
Christians, in 1947, made up 10% or more of the population of Palestine, and today they make up 1% to 4% of the population. And your figures for the present Christian population inside Israel are likely not accurate, because I expect you are counting Christians in East Jerusalem, which is not legally a part of Israel, it is a part of the OPT.
I have not seen any Palestinian Christians accusing Muslim Palestinians of ethnic cleansing.
Bethlehem is being divided by the Wall, that structure found substantially illegal by the International Court of Justice.
In addition, illegal settlements have been announced that will encircle Bethlehem. From this article: "The Christian community here is dying, and the settlements are choking us."
We are obviously talking about other posters on this forum and not ourselves. I'm sure that you can point to a democracy without any deficiencies as an example of the perfect democracy that you think Israel ought to be. I personally would like Israel to be that perfect democracy. Unfortunately the combination of human imperfection and the fact that we are engaged in a conflict with some of our neighbors have meant that our political system is not a perfect democracy. However, when our neighbors engage in warfare (domestic or between states) their actions tend to make the IDF look like a bunch of Mother Theresas. And when these same neighbors set up what they call democracies, well, by comparison, the flaws in ours don't look that catastrophic after all.
Miraj, none of the above excuses injustices that happen as a result of imperfections in the Israeli democratic political system. We Israelis should make every effort to eliminate those flaws. On the other hand it seems to me that rather than improving the State of Israel there is another agenda in play and it is not to improve the State but to destroy it. Critics who can only find fault with Israel and ignore or deny far worse faults in Israel's neighbors, do not, it seems to me, have Israel's best interests at heart. Rather they are using their criticisms of Israel to work against the interests of the State of Israel and all of its citizens. Some of these are so intent on their opposition to the existance of the State of Israel that they will even ignore or deny the oppression of their co-religionists among Israel's enemies just so they can be righteously or self-righteously be critical of Israel. But, as I wrote above, I am not talking about you or me.
