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Switch to Forum Live View Anti-Semitism in the Middle East
3 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2012 - 11:53PM #171
habesor
Posts: 5,722

Now that we have mostly agreed that Antisemitism means anti-Jew hatred (that only took 170 messages), I would suggest that we go on to discuss the topic of Antisemitism in the Arab world. I would like to make some observations about the topic. The readers are invited to agree or disagree in their replies.


1. Antisemitism is a European set of beliefs that has been imported into the Middle East along with other western ideas such as nationalism, democracy, socialism , fascism and others. 


2. Anti-Jew attitudes existed in the Middle East prior to the appearance of Zionism but differed in some ways and was similar in other ways to anti-Jew attitudes in Christian Europe prior to the evolution of European Antisemitism.


3. Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are two different ideologies.


4. There are many anti-Semites who are anti-Zionist because they are anti-Semites. There are many anti-Zionists who are not anti-Semites. There is no reason (and it is therefore incorrect) to automatically assume that an anti-Zionist is an anti-Semite, even though many anti-Zionists  are anti-Semites.


5. Palestinian nationalism has defined itself as anti-Zionism to a degree that it places its anti-Zionism at a higher priority than its pro-Palestinianism.  


6. Anti-Semitism in the Arab world is based on traditional anti-Jew attitudes, anti-Israel or anti-Zionist attitudes and western ideas of Antisemitism imported from the west by colonial powers, some of the Christian missionaries and through normal communications and cultural exchanges with the West.


As a consequence of all of the above, today the main sources of anti-Semitic material are the governments and cultural and religious institutions of the Arab world.


Habesor 

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 2:20PM #172
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

Habesor, your post is, quite simply, brilliant!


It's also clear and really gets this thread to where it belongs and should remain. And where, if I can do anything about it, will remain.


Rangerken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 2:47PM #173
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,183

Habesor


Excellent post. I only disagree with point 4. That is because in my experience there is no such thing as a person who is anti-zionist who is also not anti-semetic. I have never met such a  person either in real life or on  the web.


It is possible to have disagreements with Israeli government polices and not be anti-semitic. (If it were not we would all be anti-semites)


It is possible to have a disagreement concerning the current nature of the State of Israel (as a secular and not religious state) and not be anti-semitic.


It is even possible for some ultra nutty misguided Jewish "religious" people to oppose the actual current State of Israel because it is not the proper time for the State to come into existence and not be anti-semitic.(they are merely theologically wrong on that matter as they are on so much else)


It is not possible to be anti-Zionist and not be anti-semetic.  Denial of the Jewish people and the rights of Jewish people is by definition anti-semitic.  


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3 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 2:49PM #174
browbeaten
Posts: 3,196

Mar 15, 2012 -- 2:47PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Habesor


Excellent post. I only disagree with point 4. That is because in my experience there is no such thing as a person who is anti-zionist who is also not anti-semetic. I have never met such a  person either in real life or on  the web.


It is possible to have disagreements with Israeli government polices and not be anti-semitic. (If it were not we would all be anti-semites)


It is possible to have a disagreement concerning the current nature of the State of Israel (as a secular and not religious state) and not be anti-semitic.


It is even possible for some ultra nutty misguided Jewish "religious" people to oppose the actual current State of Israel because it is not the proper time for the State to come into existence and not be anti-semitic.(they are merely theologically wrong on that matter as they are on so much else)


It is not possible to be anti-Zionist and not be anti-semetic.  Denial of the Jewish people and the rights of Jewish people is by definition anti-semitic.  





Ditto.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 3:29PM #175
habesor
Posts: 5,722

Rocket,


Perhaps it is because I am older and have met more people but I can think of many anti-Zionists who are not anti-Semites. For instance, many Haredi Jews are anti-Zionist and I would not consider them anti-Semites. In addition there are Jews who are assimilationists or socialists to a degree that they oppose the Zionist idea. They are also not anti-Semites. There is another group that you may find surprising but I have known a number of Palestinian Arabs who are anti-Zionist but do not hate Jews and therefore don't qualify as anti-Semites. I am not talking about the fakes who claim to not hate Jews but really do. I am talking about Palestinian who oppose the Zionist idea but simply do not engage in Jew hatred. Though there are plenty who do hate Jews, trust me, there are also plenty who don't. 


Rocket, unlike some I will not disagree with the idea that a lot of anti-Zionism is the product of anti-Semitic ideas but I have met enough people that are not products of both to have come to the conclusion that it makes no analytical sense to combine the two. And by the way, I have met anti-Semites who are pro-Zionist. The world can be a mighty strange place. 


The conclusion that I have come to is that it makes more sense to talk about anti-Semitism by itself and anti-Zionism by itself than to talk about them as if they were a single phenomenon. That only leads to confusion.


Habesor

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 3:57PM #176
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,183

Habesor


You are older than me but not by that much. The Haredi are not anti-Zionist, they are just theologically mistaken as to when and how the state of Israel should be re-established. Their mishugas is not anti-Zionism they are merely anti-the existing secular State, there is a difference. 


It is possible also to be anti-semitic and not hate individual Jews. I know lots of those people. They often object to the existence of Israel and the idea of Jews as a people, and do not accept that Jews have national rights (they most often pretend that Judaism is merely another religion and nothing more), while not at the same time calling for bad things to happen (at least not immediately)  to individual Jews. None the less they are anti-semitic as they are anti-Jewish and anti-Jew.  Jew hatred as all other hatred exists on a sliding scale. One can be anti-semitic without being a raving ball of intense hate like the KKK or the Arian nations or Christian Identity or Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah or PLO or Popular Resitence Front or the Muslim Brotherhood or "name your hate group here". 


and speaking of anti-semitism in the Arab world . . .


Anti-Semitic offerings showcased at Moroccan book fair
In response, the Simon Wiesenthal Center urges prestigious Frankfurt Book Fair to ban the texts’ publishers

Anyone who’s seen a few news stands in the Arab world won’t be surprised to learn that a recent book fair in Morocco featured anti-Semitic classics such as “Mein Kampf” and “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”

The books, which also included titles like “Exposing Zionist Plots to Control the World,” were displayed as part of Casablanca’s Salon International de l’Edition et du Livre, one of the most influential book fairs in the region. The “worst” of the anti-Semitic texts appeared at stands representing Syria and Egypt,
. . .

www.timesofisrael.com/anti-semitic-offer...

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 10:34PM #177
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Mar 14, 2012 -- 11:53PM, habesor wrote:


2. Anti-Jew attitudes existed in the Middle East prior to the appearance of Zionism but differed in some ways and was similar in other ways to anti-Jew attitudes in Christian Europe prior to the evolution of European Antisemitism.




That's true. Perhaps the earliest evidence of the transition to or inclusion of European anti-Semitism into the Middle East is that blood libel that occurred in 1840. Blood libels (the canard that Jews need the blood of non-Jews for ritual purposes) had been strictly a Christian-European phenomenon. Jews had plenty of troubles and persecution in the Muslim countries, but they did not have this and other types of accusations leveled against them that they had in the Christian countries.


In the 1800s, the French came to Syria—what is today Lebanon—thus inaugurating the beginning of the French influence in the Middle East. It was the French who brought the blood libel as part of the heritage of Western culture to that part of the world.


The blood libel in Damascus was especially heinous because the French consul who stirred up the trouble made his accusations after the disappearance of one of the servants from the French Embassy even as he was well aware that the servant was murdered a jealous lover, and that it had nothing to do with the Jews or the Jewish community. Nevertheless, for political reasons, France pursued the matter in this fashion, and before long Turkish authorities arrested the heads of the Jewish community in Damascus.


The Jewish community in Syria was one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world. Jews had been there since the time of the Second Temple. The Turks arrested the leaders of that community in Damascus, and under torture a number of them died in prison. A great fine was levied against the Jewish community. But Jews throughout the rest of the Jewish world rose up in indignation -- especially Sir Moses Montefiore. Finally enough pressure was put upon the Ottoman Empire to release the remaining prisoners. The Turks apologized, but it was not really sincere and the damage had been done.


The Blood Libel of 1840 came as a shock to the Jewish world, because Jews thought that civilization had outgrown that. In particular, the Western European Jews, who were convinced that the modern world would not accommodate such terrible lies suddenly had to deal with the specter of medieval hatred still in their midst. At the same time, this new type of European anti-Semitism was introduced into the Arab-Muslim Middle East to combine with other forms of Jew hatred there -- all this in pre-Zionist times. 




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3 years ago  ::  Mar 16, 2012 - 1:35AM #178
habesor
Posts: 5,722

Rocket,


The last Lubavitcher Rebbe was not a Zionist but was not anti-Zionist either. That was a sign that there were changes going on within that partiular branch of Haredi Judaism. Today in Israel we have Haredi Jews who identify themselves as Hardalim or Haredi Leumi, (Nationalist Haredi). In addition in the last couple of years Shas, which is a Mizrachi Haredi poltical party, officially joined the Zionist Organization and will be represented with delegates at the next Zionist Congress.


The Satmar Haredim continue to be anti-Zionist and on occassion work against the Israeli government and sometimes get so carried away with their anti-Zionism that they attend one of Ahmadinijad's holocaust denial conferences. The Satmar are carrying in an old Haredi tradition when they do this sort of thing. As I wrote above the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was not a Zionist but not anti either. His predecessor was an anti-Zionist and wrote several screeds against Zionism. Some of these can be found on anti-Zionist web sites today and a few years ago I came across a pamphlet produced by (I think) the UN, which purported to show Jews' "real" attitudes towards Israel and Zionism and mostly quoted from the earlier Lubavitcher Rebbe, the Satmar Rebbe and of course our friends in the Neturai Karta, who are sometimes quoted on these threads.


Rocket, as I have said there are anti-Semites who because they hate Jews are anti-Zionists. But there are anti-Zionists who are there for other reasons including socialist anti-nationalist beliefs. They may be insane, or just wrong but the source of their anti-Zionism is not Antisemitism and it doesn't help the analysis to assume that it is.


Habesor       

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 3:26PM #179
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Mar 14, 2012 -- 11:53PM, habesor wrote:


Now that we have mostly agreed that Antisemitism means anti-Jew hatred (that only took 170 messages), I would suggest that we go on to discuss the topic of Antisemitism in the Arab world. I would like to make some observations about the topic. The readers are invited to agree or disagree in their replies.


1. Antisemitism is a European set of beliefs that has been imported into the Middle East along with other western ideas such as nationalism, democracy, socialism , fascism and others. 


2. Anti-Jew attitudes existed in the Middle East prior to the appearance of Zionism but differed in some ways and was similar in other ways to anti-Jew attitudes in Christian Europe prior to the evolution of European Antisemitism.


3. Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are two different ideologies.


4. There are many anti-Semites who are anti-Zionist because they are anti-Semites. There are many anti-Zionists who are not anti-Semites. There is no reason (and it is therefore incorrect) to automatically assume that an anti-Zionist is an anti-Semite, even though many anti-Zionists  are anti-Semites.


5. Palestinian nationalism has defined itself as anti-Zionism to a degree that it places its anti-Zionism at a higher priority than its pro-Palestinianism.  


6. Anti-Semitism in the Arab world is based on traditional anti-Jew attitudes, anti-Israel or anti-Zionist attitudes and western ideas of Antisemitism imported from the west by colonial powers, some of the Christian missionaries and through normal communications and cultural exchanges with the West.


As a consequence of all of the above, today the main sources of anti-Semitic material are the governments and cultural and religious institutions of the Arab world.


Habesor 




Yes, your conclusion is quite clear. Unfortunately, the ones who need to acknowledge it most are those most into its denial. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 3:39PM #180
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

You're hurting the claim that discussing Arab anti-Jewish sentiment on MENP is blocked.  Clearly, there is nothing stopping it.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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