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Switch to Forum Live View NOT an attack on freedom of religion
2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 2:24PM #1
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

The government has taken the position that agencies that receive public funds to support adoption services may not discriminate against same-sex couples who wish to adopt children. The Catholic Church has taken the position that this governmental stance is an attack against freedom of religion.

Hardly.


The Church can follow its precepts as it sees fit. And in a secular society (not atheist -- just not theocratic), the government can disperse its funds as it sees fit. The notion that the decision of government not to provide public funds to a group that practices faith-based discrimination is not an attack on freedom of religion -- unless someone seriously wants to argue that freedom of religion means the right of a religious group to get public funding with no strings attached.

Will right-wingers who despise government but claim to love the Constitution now try to argue for government support of a church in defiance of the Constitution? And before anyone says that public funding for a church's adoption services is not supporting that church's religion, remember that by accepting public funds to support its adoption services, a church frees up its own funds to promote its religion. And a church that will not provide adoption services UNLESS it receives public funding has simply identified itself as a government employee.

Thoughts? 


 www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/us/for-bishop...


 www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/i...


 


This is a good topic, but there were no links in this opening post. So they were added above. Nothing else in this post was changed. RK.

Moderated by rangerken on Dec 29, 2011 - 04:24PM
I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 2:32PM #2
mountain_man
Posts: 38,042

Dec 29, 2011 -- 2:24PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

The government has taken the position that agencies that receive public funds to support adoption services may not discriminate against same-sex couples who wish to adopt children. The Catholic Church has taken the position that this governmental stance is an attack against freedom of religion.

Hardly.....


You're right on all counts. The RC can do whatever they want except count on government money to help them with their bigotry and backwardness.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 3:03PM #3
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,729
If a church receives public funds to handle adoptions then they cannot discriminate based on their religious beliefs. The church has the right to refuse that money and then the state must figure out how they'll handle the work the church was doing. The only things that should be considered in adoption is whether or not the parents are fit financially, mentally, and emotionally to provide for the child--not the sex of the parents.
"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 3:18PM #4
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,656

You are totally correct Heretic

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 4:02PM #5
IreneAdler
Posts: 2,849

Here’s a couple of articles:


Bishops Say Rules on Gay Parents Limit Freedom of Religion


www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/us/for-bishop...


Times sums up arguments in Illinois adoption controversy


www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/i...


 Yeah, I saw this one yesterday.  I agree, if an institution receives gov't funds, then they cannot discriminate.  And they should take great pains to show they are not doing so.


Question: do the Catholic Charities only adopt to Catholic families?


(not that this should change anything)


Is the not allowing a couple to adopt because of some tenet of Catholic belief a way to enforce some portion of the Catholic faith on others?


 


Irene.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 4:25PM #6
REteach
Posts: 13,547

There are lots of Catholics who think the bishops need a cephaloproctectomy.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 4:29PM #7
rangerken
Posts: 15,797

Take government money, play by government rules...period...and simple.


Ken

Conservative, Libertarian, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 5:22PM #8
mountain_man
Posts: 38,042

Dec 29, 2011 -- 4:29PM, rangerken wrote:

Take government money, play by government rules...period...and simple.


That's basically what every government contract I've ever seen says.


See: FEDERAL ACQUISITION REGULATION, FAR PART 52--52.222-26



If anyone does not like those rules they do not have to sign the contract. Now, if the rules were actually discriminatory, they'd be challenged successfully by now since such rules have been on all government contracts since the early 1940's..

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 6:10PM #9
IreneAdler
Posts: 2,849

Dec 29, 2011 -- 5:22PM, mountain_man wrote:


Dec 29, 2011 -- 4:29PM, rangerken wrote:

Take government money, play by government rules...period...and simple.


That's basically what every government contract I've ever seen says.


See: FEDERAL ACQUISITION REGULATION, FAR PART 52--52.222-26



If anyone does not like those rules they do not have to sign the contract. Now, if the rules were actually discriminatory, they'd be challenged successfully by now since such rules have been on all government contracts since the early 1940's..






A bit galling that the Catholic Charities are framing this as though they are the discrimination victims of said clause.


 


Irene.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 7:34PM #10
mountain_man
Posts: 38,042

Dec 29, 2011 -- 6:10PM, IreneAdler wrote:

A bit galling that the Catholic Charities are framing this as though they are the discrimination victims of said clause.


Galling, but not unusual. The perpetrators of discrimination often cry persecution when they're not allowed to discriminate.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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