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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 7:37PM #21
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

Nov 1, 2011 -- 7:23PM, jane2 wrote:


Chari


I think very few of us on this side of the pond understand the situation in Greece.



Hi Jane!


Except for his naïvely Keynesian point #3, I think Squirrel described it quite accurately.


Europe now pays the price for letting the Greek government swindle its way into the Eurozone. Of course, rewarded behaviour (here: cooking the balance sheets) will be repeated - that's how most vertebrates' brains are wired. Therefore, such behaviour must not be rewarded any more, ever. That is the simple reason behind the austerity demands, and why in the case of Ireland, the situation is very different from Greece.

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 8:16PM #22
TemplarS
Posts: 6,249

Nov 1, 2011 -- 6:51PM, mountain_man wrote:


Nov 1, 2011 -- 4:26PM, TemplarS wrote:

They've got a huge labor pool, underpaid by the standards of those they were (initially) competing with, few health & safety regs; and a totalitarian government which can dictate investment policy rather than rationing investment capital like most western corporations do, and no embarrassment about ignoring anybody elses patents.  You start by underselling people in toys, move up to toasters, then its electronics and refrigerators, pretty soon cars and airplanes. Sort of the Japanese model, except China has abundant natural resources which the Japanese don't.



That sounds too much like what the GOP wants.




Hah!  In fact, there is much truth to that.  


There is of course the question of sustainablility.  All this in China has come at the price of an extreme dichotomy (and no small measure of hypocrisy).  The only thing which is still "Communist" is the totalitarian political system.  Whether such a strange hybrid can continue to thrive once the initial self-sustaining growth spurt subsides is the question.  The people are happy now, things are good.  But attitudes are becoming more westernized every day, and "Communism" has not the counter-force of, say, Islam in the similar totalitarian situation in Iran. When things they turn sour (as they always will, even if temporarily) one can imagine the wrath of one billion souls.  And the government thinks it can control things, in this day and age, by trying to limit the internet!  


But, a digression: the subject is Greece, not China...

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 8:19PM #23
Wanderingal
Posts: 5,504

Nov 1, 2011 -- 7:23PM, jane2 wrote:


Chari


I think very few of us on this side of the pond understand the situation in Greece.





From what I've read here so far most Americans haven't even been paying attention all these months of Greece's agonies.


And are now trying to play catch up--not very successfully.


I've been posting about it for months--especially in relation to the US's problems. ans almsot no one has even bothered to respond to my posts about the international/European debt situation.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 8:43PM #24
TemplarS
Posts: 6,249

WGal, it has gotten to the point where it is impacting Wall St., and of course now we have Corzine's firm going belly up.  People are paying attention now.


OTOH, it is safe to say that the average American doesn't much care what happens to Greece per se, they are only interested insofar as the ramifications might impact our own struggling economy.


What I'm really interested in is how the Greeks themselves are dealing with this.  This seems to me to be an extraordinary moment; other than a US presidential election, and maybe even more so than that, assuming this does go to a vote it will be one of the most intensely watched national elections in history.   

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 9:03PM #25
Wanderingal
Posts: 5,504

Templar--hi.


It's been impacting Wall Street--and all the financial markets worldwide for some time now.


Americans in general are so insular and parochial they tend not to pay attention to these things until there is violence attached to them.


Like the Greek protests of the last few weeks.


Which BTW have been going on for months--but they didn't get violent until last week or so.


As with the Wall Street impact--which ahs been going on for months in reaction to the various Euro-debt problems--but it only gets noticed whent eh impact is mfo sudden/dramatic--as it was today.


Hence the sudden American  interest in a months-old story.


It's kind of embarassing --how ill-informed most Americans are about what is going on in the rest of the wold.


(I wonder---how many Americans ae aware that the severe flooding in Thailand didn't just start last week when the American "news"casts began to pick it up--but has been going on for several monthd now?


And I wonder--how many Americans are aware of the serious ongoing debt crisis Italy has been in the midst of for months now?)


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 9:17PM #26
jane2
Posts: 14,287

Nov 1, 2011 -- 8:19PM, Wanderingal wrote:


Nov 1, 2011 -- 7:23PM, jane2 wrote:


Chari


I think very few of us on this side of the pond understand the situation in Greece.





From what I've read here so far most Americans haven't even been paying attention all these months of Greece's agonies.


And are now trying to play catch up--not very successfully.


I've been posting about it for months--especially in relation to the US's problems. ans almsot no one has even bothered to respond to my posts about the international/European debt situation.


 




Many of us have and we read British and Continental news regularly. Some of us do follow the international scene.


Chari offered info on Greece that is not well-known. Most of us do NOT know what makes Greece tick. Chari offered a new perspective.


I'm not playing catch-up but new info is new info. Chari lives on the continent.


Greece's agonies--more emotionalism.

Moderated by Stardove on Nov 02, 2011 - 07:52PM
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 9:25PM #27
TemplarS
Posts: 6,249

Well, for once, what Americans think or don't think will have little impact.  


This is now up to the Greeks- government and/or people. 

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 9:26PM #28
farragut
Posts: 3,910

Could it be that the socialist government of Greece has, in fact, been exremely profligate?


Could it be that ABC News this evening was correct in identifying as typical a Greek retiree, age 52, drawing twice as much in social security as an American could draw retiring at 65?


Or do you expect they lied?

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 9:28PM #29
Wanderingal
Posts: 5,504

Nov 1, 2011 -- 9:25PM, TemplarS wrote:


Well, for once, what Americans think or don't think will have little impact.  


This is now up to the Greeks- government and/or people. 





Templar--hi. I agree with your assessment of the current situation and will return later to discuss the question of how the Greeks are responding to the situation as you have requested.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 9:45PM #30
jane2
Posts: 14,287

Nov 1, 2011 -- 7:37PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Nov 1, 2011 -- 7:23PM, jane2 wrote:


Chari


I think very few of us on this side of the pond understand the situation in Greece.



Hi Jane!


Except for his naïvely Keynesian point #3, I think Squirrel described it quite accurately.


Europe now pays the price for letting the Greek government swindle its way into the Eurozone. Of course, rewarded behaviour (here: cooking the balance sheets) will be repeated - that's how most vertebrates' brains are wired. Therefore, such behaviour must not be rewarded any more, ever. That is the simple reason behind the austerity demands, and why in the case of Ireland, the situation is very different from Greece.




I appreciated your input from the continent. I have been watching all of this and you put me onto the English Spiegel site. Few of us understand the Greek "swindle" into the Eurozone. Now we have a bit more understanding. Is there a southern Eurozone that differs from the more northern countries; I've read a bit about this, too.


European history has been a great interest of mine and I studied it formally in college and have followed it for many decades. So many of my college studies were European centered : English Lit major, with minors in language (Classic Latin and French), European history as part of my history minor, theology and philosophy. Such a Euro-centric emphasis was not unusual in the late fifties, especially in the northeastern part of the US. My grandfather, son of Irish immigrants and a colege-degreed engineer read and spoke German. He ended his life as a minor financeer. His daughter, my aunt and godmother, had a masters in French Lit.


I''ve learned economics on my own but two of my children in business earn six figures and they are tutors often. Like your input.




 

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