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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 11:19AM #1
TemplarS
Posts: 6,238
www.cnn.com/2011/11/01/world/europe/gree...


I don't know what to think of this:

 European stock markets dropped dramatically Tuesday and the leaders of France and Germany scheduled an emergency conversation after Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou called a shock national referendum on international aid for his country.

A Greek rejection of the bail-out deal, which took months to hammer out, could lead the country to crash out of the euro and default on debts in an uncontrolled way, sending shock waves through the global financial system.


And the announcement of the referendum rattled Papandreou's hold on power Tuesday, as a lawmaker defected from his party, leaving him with a majority of only two in Parliament.


Milena Apostolaki announced her resignation from the PASOK party, saying the call for a referendum was "a deeply divisive procedure."



I'm not so much interested in more discussion as to the debt crisis or how Greece got itself into this problem.

But rather: when is it justified or beneficial for the elected government to pass the buck back directly to the people in such a referendum? 

We've had less than great success with some (state) referendums over here.

My first reaction is:  these officials are elected to act like leaders and make the tough decisions, especially in cases like this where the average voter cannot be expected to be an expert in international finance. 

But maybe the proposed deal would so greatly impact the average person that they indeed should have a voice?

Thoughts?




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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 1:50PM #2
mountain_man
Posts: 38,037

Nov 1, 2011 -- 11:19AM, TemplarS wrote:

Thoughts?


Yes. Remember that Greece is having problems now because they did exactly what the Republicans want to do here. The "austerity" measures dried up their money supply as it has in other countries that instituted such measures.


One question though..... If capitalism is so great; how come COMMUNIST China is bailing out the EU?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 2:37PM #3
arielg
Posts: 9,094

There is nothing esoteric or hard to understand in the Greek situation and many other countries, including the US:  they all got into a spending spree  with borrowed money, living beyond their means, encouraged by the lenders that had a lot of petrodollars to lend. Individuals and governments got into the action.


 Now it has come to an end and they have to pay the piper. But the people   don't want to give up benefits they received in the process.  They don't care or want to understand that the government doesn't have the money to keep subsidizing their lifestyles and why austerity is needed and inevitable. Directly or indirectly, they will pay. 


 Fools always think they have found a way around the laws of life. Referendums  are meaningless for  ignorant people unwilling to understand.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 3:13PM #4
MMarcoe
Posts: 14,651

Nov 1, 2011 -- 1:50PM, mountain_man wrote:


Nov 1, 2011 -- 11:19AM, TemplarS wrote:

Thoughts?


Yes. Remember that Greece is having problems now because they did exactly what the Republicans want to do here. The "austerity" measures dried up their money supply as it has in other countries that instituted such measures.


One question though..... If capitalism is so great; how come COMMUNIST China is bailing out the EU?





Because China is now trying its hand at capitalism and currently has cash to throw around.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 4:05PM #5
Nepenthe
Posts: 2,537

Nov 1, 2011 -- 11:19AM, TemplarS wrote:

...or how Greece got itself into this problem.



They went into debt.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 4:16PM #6
jane2
Posts: 14,287

Nov 1, 2011 -- 2:37PM, arielg wrote:


There is nothing esoteric or hard to understand in the Greek situation and many other countries, including the US:  they all got into a spending spree  with borrowed money, living beyond their means, encouraged by the lenders that had a lot of petrodollars to lend. Individuals and governments got into the action.


 Now it has come to an end and they have to pay the piper. But the people   don't want to give up benefits they received in the process.  They don't care or want to understand that the government doesn't have the money to keep subsidizing their lifestyles and why austerity is needed and inevitable. Directly or indirectly, they will pay. 


 Fools always think they have found a way around the laws of life. Referendums  are meaningless for  ignorant people unwilling to understand.




Not a Keynesian, I see.


And Dubya and his crowd wanted the old guns and butter : we have seen how that worked out



 

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 4:18PM #7
mountain_man
Posts: 38,037

Nov 1, 2011 -- 3:13PM, MMarcoe wrote:

Because China is now trying its hand at capitalism and currently has cash to throw around.


Uh... they are done "trying" and have excelled, but they're still Communist. Why does a communist country have so much cash?



I see a few people here still don't get it. The austerity measures taken by Greece are the CAUSE of their problems now. They stopped the flow of money. The lesson is not hard to learn if you just pay attention.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 4:19PM #8
mountain_man
Posts: 38,037

Nov 1, 2011 -- 4:16PM, jane2 wrote:

Not a Keynesian, I see.


And Dubya and his crowd wanted the old guns and butter : we have seen how that worked out



They moved the "production frontier" overseas.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 4:23PM #9
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,452

1. A referrendum on whether or not to accept the draconian measures demanded by the economic incompetents who "govern" the EU is a good thing. After all, without support from the public no program has a chance of success. (Not that the austerity demanded of Greece is liklely to produce a country capable of paying its "debts")


2. While the people and the government of Greece played some part in getting themselves into this mess, so did the EU which allowed Greece to join the monetary union without the EU having done its due diligence, and the irresponsible banks who lent money to a debtor who had no prospect of being able to re-pay on the terms agreed to. In addition the wholly avoidable international recession which was caused by irresponsible banking and investment practices the world over played no small part in Greece's troubles.


3. Unless and until the world economy turns around, you can expect that Greece and many more countries, busiensses and individuals will have difficulties paying their debts. The EU would do more for Greece, Europe and the world if it were busy kick starting the European economy instead of beating up on Greece, and Spain, and Portugal and Italy, and . . . .

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2011 - 4:26PM #10
TemplarS
Posts: 6,238

Nov 1, 2011 -- 4:18PM, mountain_man wrote:


Nov 1, 2011 -- 3:13PM, MMarcoe wrote:

Because China is now trying its hand at capitalism and currently has cash to throw around.


Uh... they are done "trying" and have excelled, but they're still Communist. Why does a communist country have so much cash?




They've got a huge labor pool, underpaid by the standards of those they were (initially) competing with, few health & safety regs; and a totalitarian government which can dictate investment policy rather than rationing investment capital like most western corporations do, and no embarassment about ignoring anybody else's patents.  You start by underselling people in toys, move up to toasters, then its electronics and refrigerators, pretty soon cars and airplanes. Sort of the Japanese model, except China has abundant natural resources which the Japanese don't.




 

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