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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 8:35PM #51
jane2
Posts: 14,289

Oct 11, 2011 -- 7:52PM, Lonesentinel wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 7:42PM, jane2 wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 6:17PM, Lonesentinel wrote:


I admit to not reading your link yet, but I still wish to disagree.  As a parent, the voucher system of giving it to the parent to decide where their child goes is still the best method.  I am sending my children to a religeous school in my neighborhood because the alternative is to send them to a school with a rating of 2 on a scale from 1 to 10 on their ability to give quality education.  The school itself is ran by the LCMS which does teach not of my own personal convictions, but it is better than the alternative.  Presently, we afford this only due to the fact both my wife & I work - if either of us lost our job, we would not be able to send our children there. 


When you are a parent, although this topic of employment rights is important, your child's education exceeds almost all other concerns - just the way it is.  It is too bad that schools are not what I grew up with in the 70's & 80's...




I am absoutely opposed to any voucher system for education outside the public system.


My parents and grandparents chose to educate al of us in Private, not parochial, Catholic high schools and certainly wished no help from the state.


I pay high property taxes where I live so my grandchildren can attend an excellent public high school. I will pay them long after they graduate to maintain this school system. I am willing to fork out for good public education.


LS, why live in an area with shoddy public schools? Not a slam, just a question.





Because (for Denver) this neighborhood is about as safe as they come.  We were not thinking about the school system when we bought the house, and now we could not sell the house for even close to what we owe on it.  We are doing fine in making our mortgage payments, but the option of moving is not worth the debt/credit risk that would be associated.


 




I understand only too well, not personally, but family-wise. Greed ruled here for a few years and now all too many are paying the price. My own ranch condo unit is worth about a third less than what I paid six years ago so I couldn't sell either.


Thanks for your sincere answer. I wish you and your family well.


J.




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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 8:44PM #52
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,737

Oct 11, 2011 -- 7:42PM, jane2 wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 6:17PM, Lonesentinel wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 5:22PM, TPaine wrote:


Has anyone read the 6th Circuit Court decision which can be found here? I think it's important to understand why a court rules as it does.


It's incidents such as this that cause me to oppose vouchers for religious schools and faith based initiatives. Although it's not an issue in this case, when taxpayer funds are given to organizations which are allowed to discriminate, some individuals are subject to being discriminated against by those organizations their taxes money support.





I admit to not reading your link yet, but I still wish to disagree.  As a parent, the voucher system of giving it to the parent to decide where their child goes is still the best method.  I am sending my children to a religeous school in my neighborhood because the alternative is to send them to a school with a rating of 2 on a scale from 1 to 10 on their ability to give quality education.  The school itself is ran by the LCMS which does teach not of my own personal convictions, but it is better than the alternative.  Presently, we afford this only due to the fact both my wife & I work - if either of us lost our job, we would not be able to send our children there. 


When you are a parent, although this topic of employment rights is important, your child's education exceeds almost all other concerns - just the way it is.  It is too bad that schools are not what I grew up with in the 70's & 80's...




I am absoutely opposed to any voucher system for education outside the public system.


My parents and grandparents chose to educate al of us in Private, not parochial, Catholic high schools and certainly wished no help from the state.


I pay high property taxes where I live so my grandchildren can attend an excellent public high school. I will pay them long after they graduate to maintain this school system. I am willing to fork out for good public education.


LS, why live in an area with shoddy public schools? Not a slam, just a question.








I'm torn on the issue of vouchers. I disagree with the complaint that by allowing vouchers the gov't is supporting religion, because obviously it's a choice. I get the complaint that if everyone sends their kids to private schools then public schools will suffer more. However, neither of those complaints are strong enough for me to get past the fact that it's not fair to condemn a poor student to crappy schools, because some people have an issue with them having the choice of going to private schools. It feels a little bit too much like condemning them to bad education because they can't afford good education.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 8:50PM #53
Fodaoson
Posts: 10,933

Oct 10, 2011 -- 9:36PM, Ken wrote:


Oct 10, 2011 -- 7:30PM, Fodaoson wrote:

Any activity under the umbrella of religious teaching is outside the  pale of government.     



So if a religion required human sacrifice, you'd be all right with that. The government couldn't act to  prevent it.









Whether I am all right with it or not is not addressed.
The issue is the Constitution.    I am
not a fan, user, of pornography and personally wish it was banned on the
internet but free speech and free press 
allow it and the rights of free speech and free press are more important
than my preferences .    Human
sacrifice  is judged so hideous by society
that it falls outside  even the most radical
definition of religious practice.





Teaching about human sacrifice and doing it liturgically
is common practice.  The Communion cup is
celebration of the sacrifice of Jesus.  The Congress has not and should not communion





 The  issue of teachers in  a religious  school is a matter that the constitution says  is outside of government   realm.

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 9:45PM #54
farragut
Posts: 3,910

This is a bit off-topic, but Jane and LS addresed it, so I thought I might offer a helpful comment.


The fact that you cannot sell your house for the price you paid is not necessarily a killer situation. Recognize that the replacement house you purchase in the area more suitable for you will probably also be sold at a loss. Can make for at least a wash situation. And if you are moving up, you could be making a nice net gain. Add to that the ridiculously low mortgage rates currently available!


So, don't feel tied to an inconvenient location with under-performing schools if something better is available. Maybe you can do it. Talk with your Realtor.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 9:55PM #55
jane2
Posts: 14,289

Oct 11, 2011 -- 8:44PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 7:42PM, jane2 wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 6:17PM, Lonesentinel wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 5:22PM, TPaine wrote:


Has anyone read the 6th Circuit Court decision which can be found here? I think it's important to understand why a court rules as it does.


It's incidents such as this that cause me to oppose vouchers for religious schools and faith based initiatives. Although it's not an issue in this case, when taxpayer funds are given to organizations which are allowed to discriminate, some individuals are subject to being discriminated against by those organizations their taxes money support.





I admit to not reading your link yet, but I still wish to disagree.  As a parent, the voucher system of giving it to the parent to decide where their child goes is still the best method.  I am sending my children to a religeous school in my neighborhood because the alternative is to send them to a school with a rating of 2 on a scale from 1 to 10 on their ability to give quality education.  The school itself is ran by the LCMS which does teach not of my own personal convictions, but it is better than the alternative.  Presently, we afford this only due to the fact both my wife & I work - if either of us lost our job, we would not be able to send our children there. 


When you are a parent, although this topic of employment rights is important, your child's education exceeds almost all other concerns - just the way it is.  It is too bad that schools are not what I grew up with in the 70's & 80's...




I am absoutely opposed to any voucher system for education outside the public system.


My parents and grandparents chose to educate al of us in Private, not parochial, Catholic high schools and certainly wished no help from the state.


I pay high property taxes where I live so my grandchildren can attend an excellent public high school. I will pay them long after they graduate to maintain this school system. I am willing to fork out for good public education.


LS, why live in an area with shoddy public schools? Not a slam, just a question.








I'm torn on the issue of vouchers. I disagree with the complaint that by allowing vouchers the gov't is supporting religion, because obviously it's a choice. I get the complaint that if everyone sends their kids to private schools then public schools will suffer more. However, neither of those complaints are strong enough for me to get past the fact that it's not fair to condemn a poor student to crappy schools, because some people have an issue with them having the choice of going to private schools. It feels a little bit too much like condemning them to bad education because they can't afford good education.




I can see your point, GC, but I do not accede to it. I will pay taxes to support good public schools but not for private education. Private education is a privilege.


Right now here in Georgia we are having problems with a fairly decent Pre-K system financed by our lottery because lottery proceeds are down in the recession. I truly believe in Pre-K education, especially for children from families where poor English is spoken. Lottery proceeds are also less for our children in the college Hope Scholarship program. Something I have seen where I live, as an aside, is that the children of Asian families where English is a second language do well. As a matter of practice I support Korean small businesses here.


Poor performance in public schools has many fathers. We are still looking for answers. In 1960, at 20, I graduated from college with New York State credentials to teach secondary English. I had 13 job offers and chose a middle of the road suburban school district. My teaching gift is for gifted students ; not everyone wants to teach these rambunctious youngsters. We need teachers who can work with underachievers, too, and there are those who can. I've been long retired but I still look for answers.




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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 10:10PM #56
mountain_man
Posts: 38,086

Oct 11, 2011 -- 3:27PM, Girlchristian wrote:

She also teaches religion and leads prayer which are things 'ministers' do.


She teaches from a book. She does no ministerial duties. The teacher is not a minister.


The gov't should have no say in who is classified as a minister and who is not. Separation of church and state means just that...


The church should not be able to violate our laws and then claim exemption.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 10:16PM #57
mountain_man
Posts: 38,086

Oct 11, 2011 -- 8:50PM, Fodaoson wrote:

...Human sacrifice  is judged so hideous by society that it falls outside  even the most radical definition of religious practice.



Yet, it's a religious teaching, and according to your argument, it should be exempt from our laws and morals.


The  issue of teachers in  a religious  school is a matter that the constitution says  is outside of government   realm.


As would virgin sacrifice.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 10:48PM #58
Wanderingal
Posts: 5,504

Oct 11, 2011 -- 10:10PM, mountain_man wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 3:27PM, Girlchristian wrote:

She also teaches religion and leads prayer which are things 'ministers' do.


She teaches from a book. She does no ministerial duties. The teacher is not a minister.


The gov't should have no say in who is classified as a minister and who is not. Separation of church and state means just that...


The church should not be able to violate our laws and then claim exemption.





Amen.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 10:51PM #59
Fodaoson
Posts: 10,933

Oct 11, 2011 -- 10:16PM, mountain_man wrote:


Oct 11, 2011 -- 8:50PM, Fodaoson wrote:

...Human sacrifice  is judged so hideous by society that it falls outside  even the most radical definition of religious practice.



Yet, it's a religious teaching, and according to your argument, it should be exempt from our laws and morals.


The  issue of teachers in  a religious  school is a matter that the constitution says  is outside of government   realm.


As would virgin sacrifice.




Yes it can be
taught , as in the literary of communion as a spiritual (not bodily )  practice. The communion signifies the sacrifice
and death that precedes the overcoming of death by the resurrection.


Religion is in the
spiritual, not worldly, bodily realm,  The
death burial and resurrection is reenacted in baptism. The symbolic death,
burial and resurrection of the individual is experienced by the individual and demonstrated
to and  witnessed by the congregation of the
faithful .  Should movies that depict death
in any form, violence, illness, natural causes, be banned? Movies are protected
by frees speech but actual killing of people in a move is outlawed. Liturgical
human sacrifice is telling a religious event story  and if an actual sacrifice is done, then it
is murder not religion .  

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 11:23PM #60
mountain_man
Posts: 38,086

Oct 11, 2011 -- 10:51PM, Fodaoson wrote:

Yes it can be taught .....


We are not talking about just teaching, but practicing. According to your argument; virgin sacrifice would be exempt and could be legally practiced because it's exempt from government interference.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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