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Switch to Forum Live View What are the Christian values America was founded upon?
3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 8:15AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 21,021
I've heard people say that America is a Christian nation.  I've heard people say that America was founded upon the basis of Christian values.

Given that nations are political entities, this implies that America's government should aim to instantiate the values of Christianity.

Using passages from the teachings of Jesus, I'd like to know which programmes funded by taxpayers and run by the government achieve Christian ends.

Also, using passages from the teachings of Jesus, what other things can the government do in order to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth?




Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"


He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"


He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself."


He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."


But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbour?"


Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"


He said, "He who showed mercy on him."


Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

***********************


Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."


He said, "Teacher, say on."


"A certain lender had two debtors. The one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they couldn't pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?"


Simon answered, "He, I suppose, to whom he forgave the most."


He said to him, "You have judged correctly." Turning to the woman, he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered into your house, and you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave me no kiss, but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. You didn't anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little." He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."


 *****************


When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”


When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”


*****************

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 8:34AM #2
watcher59
Posts: 1,606

Sep 18, 2011 -- 8:15AM, Kwinters wrote:

I've heard people say that America is a Christian nation.  I've heard people say that America was founded upon the basis of Christian values.

Given that nations are political entities, this implies that America's government should aim to instantiate the values of Christianity.

Using passages from the teachings of Jesus, I'd like to know which programmes funded by taxpayers and run by the government achieve Christian ends.

Also, using passages from the teachings of Jesus, what other things can the government do in order to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth?




Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"


He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"


He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself."


He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."


But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbour?"


Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"


He said, "He who showed mercy on him."


Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

***********************


Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."


He said, "Teacher, say on."


"A certain lender had two debtors. The one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they couldn't pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?"


Simon answered, "He, I suppose, to whom he forgave the most."


He said to him, "You have judged correctly." Turning to the woman, he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered into your house, and you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave me no kiss, but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. You didn't anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little." He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."


 *****************


When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”


When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”


*****************

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 


Given these examples in consideration with opposition to Christian influence in government, it follows that the government should NOT be involved in charitable pursuits?

How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 9:10AM #3
Kwinters
Posts: 21,021

As another poster (sorry, can't recall who it was) put it.


If Christians come together as a church to help others, that's ok.


If Christians come together as a community group to help others, that's ok.


If Christians come together as a not for profit to help others, that's ok.


If Christians come together as a local government to help others, that's ok.


If Christians come together as a statewide association to help others, that's ok.


If Christians come together as a state government to help others, that's ok.


If Christians come together as a national organization to help others, that's ok.


But if Christians come together as a federal government to help others, that's atheistic socialism.


 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 10:27AM #4
watcher59
Posts: 1,606

If government legislates part of Judeo-Christian law, that's okay.


If government mandates the funding of Christian values like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and sheltering the homeless, that's okay.


But, if government, or any government official, or anyone who happens to be within sight of a government building or monument, invokes the Trinity, that is establishing religion and a violation of the First Amendment.


The irony of legislating religious values and then denying their source is cause for endless amusement.

How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 12:19PM #5
paeng
Posts: 557

Related:  "The Founding Fathers and Islam"


www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html


 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 2:00PM #6
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,131

Sep 18, 2011 -- 10:27AM, watcher59 wrote:


[1]If government legislates part of Judeo-Christian law, that's okay.


[2]If government mandates the funding of Christian values like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and sheltering the homeless, that's okay.


[3]But, if government, or any government official, or anyone who happens to be within sight of a government building or monument, invokes the Trinity, that is establishing religion and a violation of the First Amendment.


[4]The irony of legislating religious values and then denying their source is cause for endless amusement.









[1]Many Judeo-Christian   Values are
human values and shared with religions and philosophy from many cultures. Not a
single commandment of the ten commandments is  found only there.  The Ten Commandments are predated by the codeof Hammurabi.[2] Feeding the Hungry clothing the naked, caring for ill, sheltering the homeless  again are human actions that do not belong to Christianity alone. Alms giving for the poor, Feeding the hungry and sheltering the needy are common to Islam , the five pillars. 


[3]  The trinity  is a  belief and teaching of  the Christian  religion and  some  talk or Action by a government official can  give financial support and sanction to that
doctrine therefore “establishing”  it.  Congress, by creating and funding and authorizing
action that official position  has established a religious teaching  and therefore  violating the First amendment .


 

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 2:18PM #7
Kwinters
Posts: 21,021

Sep 18, 2011 -- 10:27AM, watcher59 wrote:


If government legislates part of Judeo-Christian law, that's okay.


If government mandates the funding of Christian values like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and sheltering the homeless, that's okay.


But, if government, or any government official, or anyone who happens to be within sight of a government building or monument, invokes the Trinity, that is establishing religion and a violation of the First Amendment.


The irony of legislating religious values and then denying their source is cause for endless amusement.





 


You've avoided the topic of the OP.


The issue here was for Christians to map on Christian values to government programs.


You haven't done that.


As for your complaint, I think you should take it up with Jesus, because the opposition to public prayer started with him:


 


And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.


But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 6:38PM #8
TENAC
Posts: 25,136

You make the mistake of attempting to cross Christianity into a man created entity; government.


 


Christianity begins and ends with the individual and how that individual dies to him or herself daily to take up the teachings of Jesus.


I dont recall Jesus saying, "Give of your money to the Romans to redistribute to those in need."  Governemnts are corrupt and do this poorly.  In many instances the same can be said about church Governments as well.


 


But those with in whom Christ lives are constantly called back to His teachings, irregardless of governments both secular and religious.


 


So, in the teachings you mention, it is up to me and you, individually or a community of like minded individuals to see to and carry out the teachings of Christ so to live a life more like His.  Again, die to self, live for Him.


 


Now if I tell you I take charitable contributions off my taxes, many would consider that hippocritical.  But my charitable giving isnt predicated on my tax liability.  It is set aside regardless of what the government might do.


Let me ask you, what do you think will suffer most if obama gets his way with his idea of tax reform; the churches or the charitable agencies of the govt?


 

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 6:40PM #9
watcher59
Posts: 1,606

You've avoided the topic of the OP.


The issue here was for Christians to map on Christian values to government programs.


You haven't done that.


I disagree. I offered counter-points to the OP and listed several Christian values requested. I then offered a contrasting point of view to the OP. I certainly didn't avoid it.


As for your complaint, I think you should take it up with Jesus, because the opposition to public prayer started with him:


 It was an observation, not a complaint.

How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2011 - 6:42PM #10
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,043

Sep 18, 2011 -- 2:18PM, Kwinters wrote:


Sep 18, 2011 -- 10:27AM, watcher59 wrote:


If government legislates part of Judeo-Christian law, that's okay.


If government mandates the funding of Christian values like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and sheltering the homeless, that's okay.


But, if government, or any government official, or anyone who happens to be within sight of a government building or monument, invokes the Trinity, that is establishing religion and a violation of the First Amendment.


The irony of legislating religious values and then denying their source is cause for endless amusement.





 


You've avoided the topic of the OP.


The issue here was for Christians to map on Christian values to government programs.


You haven't done that.


As for your complaint, I think you should take it up with Jesus, because the opposition to public prayer started with him:


 


And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.


But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.





That verse is more about people who pray in public just to be seen praying in public, hence the call to not be like the hypocrites. We're called to pray with others pretty frequently in the Bible.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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