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Switch to Forum Live View Soccer Based Anti-Semitism in Holland - Against a team which isn't actually Jewish
3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 7:41AM #81
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Sep 4, 2011 -- 5:42AM, DotNotInOz wrote:

Hmmm. I may change my mind about this due to happening onto the following article which argues that anti-semitism is often much too broadly defined: www.counterpunch.org/2002/06/04/what-is-... I think Charikleia correct that this is simply verbal violence, potentially more dangerous should something push people to physical violence, but not actually expressing hatred of Jews. Offensive behavior, yes indeed, but largely harmless unless we define anti-semitism too broadly. I'm now inclined to see a chant like "Jews to the gas" as similar to American sports fans yelling "Kill the umpire (or referee)!" No one thinks they actually want the person killed. It's simply a harmless means of venting anger at a bad call by the game official just as "Jews to the gas" expresses the desire for the opposing team's defeat. Tacky, yes. Tasteless, indeed...but not intending harm to actual Jews. In reality, referring only to "exterminating" the opposing team. 



Your link is a great article.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 9:58AM #82
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833
That article caused me to take this rather less seriously, Ariel.

So, I can agree that while these references to Jews are horribly offensive (think the Fred Phelps gang here), they're pretty typical sportsfan exaggeration probably deliberately selected for the shock value.
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 4:15PM #83
solfeggio
Posts: 9,346

I don't care what they say in the Counterpunch piece, which deals mostly with Israel, in any case.  Yelling about sending Jewish people to the gas chambers is ANTI-SEMITISM, pure and simple, and it's just as evil as what the Germans shouted and chanted during the 1930s.


Obviously, most people have long since forgot what happened during those horrible times.


If some louts started yelling 'Crucify the Christian bastards,' or 'To the cross with the Jesus freaks,' you can bet that there would be an outcry from the true believers.


You think they would be amused by the slurs to their religion? 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 7:44PM #84
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Sep 4, 2011 -- 4:15PM, solfeggio wrote:


I don't care what they say in the Counterpunch piece, which deals mostly with Israel, in any case.  Yelling about sending Jewish people to the gas chambers is ANTI-SEMITISM, pure and simple, and it's just as evil as what the Germans shouted and chanted during the 1930s.


Obviously, most people have long since forgot what happened during those horrible times.


If some louts started yelling 'Crucify the Christian bastards,' or 'To the cross with the Jesus freaks,' you can bet that there would be an outcry from the true believers.


You think they would be amused by the slurs to their religion? 





Few of us have forgotten. Those of us raised in the Northeastern US have had many Jewish friends and we don't forget. Both of my grandchildren raised in the Atlanta burbs have read THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK. They have also read THE GRAPES OF WRATH. These were middle-school assignments.


Some European countries have their own standards, foreign to Americans.


Here, right now, instead, though, we have right-wing nut cases trying to make some believe that this country is a christian establishment according to their views. It isn't.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 8:23PM #85
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Sep 4, 2011 -- 5:42AM, DotNotInOz wrote:

Hmmm. I may change my mind about this due to happening onto the following article which argues that anti-semitism is often much too broadly defined:  www.counterpunch.org/2002/06/04/what-is-... I think Charikleia correct that this is simply verbal violence, potentially more dangerous should something push people to physical violence, but not actually expressing hatred of Jews. Offensive behavior, yes indeed, but largely harmless unless we define anti-semitism too broadly.  I'm now inclined to see a chant like "Jews to the gas" as similar to American sports fans yelling "Kill the umpire (or referee)!" No one thinks they actually want the person killed. It's simply a harmless means of venting anger at a bad call by the game official just as "Jews to the gas" expresses the desire for the opposing team's defeat. Tacky, yes. Tasteless, indeed...but not intending harm to actual Jews. In reality, referring only to "exterminating" the opposing team. 



 


OK, yes American sports fans yell for the umps head to be on a platter true.  But here is the thing, umpires and referees don't have a history of being beheaded.  Destroy the Red Sox - well that really does not happen. Kick the dodgers ass - their asses are never kicked in a literal sense.


So I really can't see it as the equivalent because we all know that the whole reason there are so few actuall jews involved in the Ajax team is because they were killed, because they were actually sent to the gas where they were in real life exterminated.


What about those teams that sometimes are ruined by a airplane crash?  Does then the opposing team chant that they should die in a crash?  Crash Marshall?  They don't. 


 


So I can't see it ias an equivalent. 


 




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3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 8:40PM #86
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Sep 4, 2011 -- 8:23PM, Erey wrote:


Sep 4, 2011 -- 5:42AM, DotNotInOz wrote:

Hmmm. I may change my mind about this due to happening onto the following article which argues that anti-semitism is often much too broadly defined: www.counterpunch.org/2002/06/04/what-is-... I think Charikleia correct that this is simply verbal violence, potentially more dangerous should something push people to physical violence, but not actually expressing hatred of Jews. Offensive behavior, yes indeed, but largely harmless unless we define anti-semitism too broadly. I'm now inclined to see a chant like "Jews to the gas" as similar to American sports fans yelling "Kill the umpire (or referee)!" No one thinks they actually want the person killed. It's simply a harmless means of venting anger at a bad call by the game official just as "Jews to the gas" expresses the desire for the opposing team's defeat. Tacky, yes. Tasteless, indeed...but not intending harm to actual Jews. In reality, referring only to "exterminating" the opposing team. 



 


OK, yes American sports fans yell for the umps head to be on a platter true.  But here is the thing, umpires and referees don't have a history of being beheaded.  Destroy the Red Sox - well that really does not happen. Kick the dodgers ass - their asses are never kicked in a literal sense.


So I really can't see it as the equivalent because we all know that the whole reason there are so few actuall jews involved in the Ajax team is because they were killed, because they were actually sent to the gas where they were in real life exterminated.


What about those teams that sometimes are ruined by a airplane crash?  Does then the opposing team chant that they should die in a crash?  Crash Marshall?  They don't. 


 


So I can't see it ias an equivalent. 


 








I cant either.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 9:48PM #87
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833

Sep 4, 2011 -- 8:23PM, Erey wrote:


OK, yes American sports fans yell for the umps head to be on a platter true.  But here is the thing, umpires and referees don't have a history of being beheaded.  Destroy the Red Sox - well that really does not happen. Kick the dodgers ass - their asses are never kicked in a literal sense.


And neither are the people about whom "Jews to the gas" is said. That's the whole point--it's the same sort of thing as American fans mean when the yell "Kill!" about opponents.  
 

So I really can't see it as the equivalent because we all know that the whole reason there are so few actuall jews involved in the Ajax team is because they were killed, because they were actually sent to the gas where they were in real life exterminated.


Huh?? For one thing, it's not the Ajax team but their FANS who call themselves Jews.

Furthermore, Ajax players would be the great-grandchildren of people alive during World War II. A good many of their fans are probably young enough to be great-great grandchildren, so it's not as if we're talking about Amsterdam right after WW2 when there may well have been few Jews.  

In fact, sources I read say that apparently the association of Ajax fans with Jewishness originated because fans walked through a Jewish neighborhood to get to the stadium in the 1930's, and opposing teams thus assumed they were Jews.  

What about those teams that sometimes are ruined by a airplane crash?  Does then the opposing team chant that they should die in a crash?  


It doesn't refer to the team but to fans who CHOSE this name, so again, I think your concern misplaced. And it's also soccer fans doing these chants, not teammembers.  

No one denies it's offensive. However, as vigilant as the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) is about going after instances of anti-semitism, I think it telling that they've taken no action on this.

Additional research I've done indicates that Dutch police have occasionally intervened when the chants became too outrageous. However, some of Ajax Amsterdam's owners are Jews. One would think they'd impose severe restrictions if they felt this was truly anti-semitism and not simply fans venting.  

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2011 - 11:32PM #88
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Sep 4, 2011 -- 9:48PM, DotNotInOz wrote:

Sep 4, 2011 -- 8:23PM, Erey wrote:


OK, yes American sports fans yell for the umps head to be on a platter true.  But here is the thing, umpires and referees don't have a history of being beheaded.  Destroy the Red Sox - well that really does not happen. Kick the dodgers ass - their asses are never kicked in a literal sense.


And neither are the people about whom "Jews to the gas" is said. That's the whole point--it's the same sort of thing as American fans mean when the yell "Kill!" about opponents.    

So I really can't see it as the equivalent because we all know that the whole reason there are so few actuall jews involved in the Ajax team is because they were killed, because they were actually sent to the gas where they were in real life exterminated.


Huh?? For one thing, it's not the Ajax team but their FANS who call themselves Jews.  Furthermore, Ajax players would be the great-grandchildren of people alive during World War II. A good many of their fans are probably young enough to be great-great grandchildren, so it's not as if we're talking about Amsterdam right after WW2 when there may well have been few Jews.    In fact, sources I read say that apparently the association of Ajax fans with Jewishness originated because fans walked through a Jewish neighborhood to get to the stadium in the 1930's, and opposing teams thus assumed they were Jews.   

What about those teams that sometimes are ruined by a airplane crash?  Does then the opposing team chant that they should die in a crash?  


It doesn't refer to the team but to fans who CHOSE this name, so again, I think your concern misplaced. And it's also soccer fans doing these chants, not teammembers.    No one denies it's offensive. However, as vigilant as the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) is about going after instances of anti-semitism, I think it telling that they've taken no action on this.  Additional research I've done indicates that Dutch police have occasionally intervened when the chants became too outrageous. However, some of Ajax Amsterdam's owners are Jews. One would think they'd impose severe restrictions if they felt this was truly anti-semitism and not simply fans venting.  




I just don't see it as the equivalent because when you say kill the  football team, football teams are not typically literaly killed.  Only very occasionaly and very rarely might a player die but nobody really thinks a player is going to die.


However, jews have been gassed by the train loads, that really happened.  And as one poster mentioned up to 90% of the dutch jews were killed during the holocost.


I guess I could see it as an equivalent if soccer fans were yelling for all the other teams to be gassed.  But they are not yelling for any other team to be gassed, just the jews.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 11, 2011 - 10:32PM #89
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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