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Switch to Forum Live View Are the Dutch anti Muslim as well as Anti-Semitic? It appears so.
3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 6:03PM #11
Erey
Posts: 19,423

I too am aware of the dirty practises of factory farms.  I don't think slaughter methods is what makes factory farms so abhorrent.  Again, I don't think slaughter is the issue in farming.


The issue is how do the creatures live before they are slaughtered. 


So those legislators are misguided. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 6:07PM #12
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:49PM, CharikIeia wrote:


What you say makes sense, yes. I guess this topic was the one where this part could garner sufficient support from other parties, as it doesn't harm the big financial interests of influential factory farmers.


I didn't vote for them, being a German I didn't even have a vote for Dutch parliament, and if I had one, I certainly would not have voted for them either. But I accept the democratic genesis of this law, and have no problem with it whatsoever.


If this is interfering with religious freedom, I am confident the courts will sort it out.


Concerning this thread here: To decry a whole nation as undemocratic because of a democratic decision is, pardon me, partisan hysteria at best.




I dont think we are decrying an entire nation, just what many of us find a disagreeable bill that passed one house.


I sorta wonder what my cousin's daughter would think. My cousin, her dad, was raised in the NYS Jewish Alps--the Catskills. She married a young Dutchman in Jamaica two years ago and they had real problems with the recognition of their marriage in Holland; it finally got sorted out and she can now work there. Blimey she has a Masters degree, hardly a drag on the economy. (She also happens to be a blond beauty.) Her dad did tell me he had a pleasant couple of days in Amsterdam with her and her husband on his way to France. He and I love France. His mother's maiden name and mine were French--probably some Hugenots in our Irish/English legacy.


 


 



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3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 6:23PM #13
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 28, 2011 -- 6:07PM, jane2 wrote:


I dont think we are decrying an entire nation...
just what many of us find a disagreeable bill...



Then read again what the very first sentences of the thread say:


So much for the idea that the Netherlands is still a liberal democracy.
The dirty underside of European hate politics is exposed...


The purpose of this thread is not criticism of the bill. It is criticism of a country & of a continent. The bill is merely the opportunity for doing this, the excuse for venting some deep-rooted hatred.

tl;dr
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 6:54PM #14
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jun 28, 2011 -- 6:23PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 28, 2011 -- 6:07PM, jane2 wrote:


I dont think we are decrying an entire nation...
just what many of us find a disagreeable bill...



Then read again what the very first sentences of the thread say:


So much for the idea that the Netherlands is still a liberal democracy.
The dirty underside of European hate politics is exposed...


The purpose of this thread is not criticism of the bill. It is criticism of a country & of a continent. The bill is merely the opportunity for doing this, the excuse for venting some deep-rooted hatred.




I don't see this as such a broad assault. I don't like the bill which I read about in the NYT this morning, but I'm not really on some bandwagon.


As I've mentioned before, I grew up in a city, Albany, NY, that was 45% Catholic and 35% Jewish. That city, the second oldest in the US, was founded by the Dutch. Lots of Dutch architecture. In grade school I took art lessons at the Albany history and art building--Dutch architecture.


I try to buy free-range eggs and chicken in a Southern market chain with a conscience.




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3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 7:01PM #15
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 28, 2011 -- 6:54PM, jane2 wrote:


I don't see this as such a broad assault.



Then maybe you don't pay much attention to Squirrel's posts about Europe.



As I've mentioned before, I grew up in a city, Albany, NY, that was 45% Catholic and 35% Jewish. That city, the second oldest in the US, was founded by the Dutch.



As was New Amsterdam, pardon, New York, yes. The whole USA with its protestant fundamentalist take on capitalism can be seen as a spin-off of the Dutch Republic (that lasted about 200 years, ending in 1795)...

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 7:39PM #16
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jun 28, 2011 -- 7:01PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 28, 2011 -- 6:54PM, jane2 wrote:


I don't see this as such a broad assault.



Then maybe you don't pay much attention to Squirrel's posts about Europe.



As I've mentioned before, I grew up in a city, Albany, NY, that was 45% Catholic and 35% Jewish. That city, the second oldest in the US, was founded by the Dutch.



As was New Amsterdam, pardon, New York, yes. The whole USA with its protestant fundamentalist take on capitalism can be seen as a spin-off of the Dutch Republic (that lasted about 200 years, ending in 1795)...




Chari


I certainly don't support overweaning capaitlism. I deplore it. And I'm not anti-European--so many of my college studies in English Lit, European history, French and Latin were Europe-centered as a great part of my heritage. I also studied Aquinas' Faith and Reason in philosopy and theology. I'm no American Proddy fundamentalist--quite the opposite. Something the neo-cons in Rome dislike about American Catholicism is that we are Protestanized in a broad sense, but we still believe we are called to be our brother's keeper when needed.


Normally I call myself a moderate, slightly left of center.


Much of the world is in economic uncetaintancy now ; much of it caused by the greed of international bankers. I'm a student of the humanities but I keep trying to learn more and more about economics.



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3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 10:15PM #17
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Jun 28, 2011 -- 4:09PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


So much for the idea that the Netherlands is still a liberal democracy. The dirty underside of European hate politics is exposed in ritual slaughter ban.

This is not an animal rights move - that would be a ban on slaughter. This is anti-muslim and anti-semitic. Interested people should review the studies done by Temple Grandin, Colorado State University Professer and animal activist, as well as the various studies concerning the extra pain inflicted on animals by stunning before slaughter.  


I know we have been here before, but it is time to wake up to reality. Europe is reverting to type.


Dutch Parliament Bans Religious Animal Slaughter


Netherlands passes bill to ban ritual slaughter for kosher and halal meats.


By: Ashely Baylen
Published: June 28th, 2011


. . .

The Animal Rights Party, the first of it’s kind in Europe to win seats in parliament, passed the bill with an astounding 116-30 in the lower house of parliament. In order for the ruling to become a law, the bill must also pass within the upper house.


The bill stipulates that animals must be stunned before being killed. This practice is contrary to both kosher and halal laws that require livestock to be conscious at the time of slaughter.


. . .


 The Muslim and Jewish communities of the Netherlands’ have come together in an effort to prevent this bill from passing. They are fighting for their respective religious freedoms, and believe this proposed law to be a violation.


“The very fact that there is a discussion about this is very painful for the Jewish community,” says Netherland Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs. “Those who survived the war remember the very first law made by the Germans in Holland was the banning of schechita or the Jewish way of slaughtering animals.” (emphasis added)


. . .



Britain’s Chief Jonathan Sacks visited the Netherlands last week to lobby against the proposed law. His argument states that pre-stunning failed in up to ten percent of cases, which actually caused additional and unnecessary pain- more so than the cutting of the throat by a razor sharp knife. (emphasis added)


International Relations Director for the Conference of European Rabbis in Brussels, Philip Carmel, points out that the upper house might still reject the bill. “We believe the Dutch parliament and people, who have a history of tolerance, will see sense and make the right decision.”


full article:


www.shalomlife.com/news/15472/dutch-parl...





Squirrel,


There are plenty we disagree on, but religious freedom is not one of them.


Animal rights ideology is in essence a religion which is trying to be come the official creed.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 10:20PM #18
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jun 28, 2011 -- 10:15PM, Roodog wrote:


Jun 28, 2011 -- 4:09PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


So much for the idea that the Netherlands is still a liberal democracy. The dirty underside of European hate politics is exposed in ritual slaughter ban.

This is not an animal rights move - that would be a ban on slaughter. This is anti-muslim and anti-semitic. Interested people should review the studies done by Temple Grandin, Colorado State University Professer and animal activist, as well as the various studies concerning the extra pain inflicted on animals by stunning before slaughter.  


I know we have been here before, but it is time to wake up to reality. Europe is reverting to type.


Dutch Parliament Bans Religious Animal Slaughter


Netherlands passes bill to ban ritual slaughter for kosher and halal meats.


By: Ashely Baylen
Published: June 28th, 2011


. . .

The Animal Rights Party, the first of it’s kind in Europe to win seats in parliament, passed the bill with an astounding 116-30 in the lower house of parliament. In order for the ruling to become a law, the bill must also pass within the upper house.


The bill stipulates that animals must be stunned before being killed. This practice is contrary to both kosher and halal laws that require livestock to be conscious at the time of slaughter.


. . .


 The Muslim and Jewish communities of the Netherlands’ have come together in an effort to prevent this bill from passing. They are fighting for their respective religious freedoms, and believe this proposed law to be a violation.


“The very fact that there is a discussion about this is very painful for the Jewish community,” says Netherland Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs. “Those who survived the war remember the very first law made by the Germans in Holland was the banning of schechita or the Jewish way of slaughtering animals.” (emphasis added)


. . .



Britain’s Chief Jonathan Sacks visited the Netherlands last week to lobby against the proposed law. His argument states that pre-stunning failed in up to ten percent of cases, which actually caused additional and unnecessary pain- more so than the cutting of the throat by a razor sharp knife. (emphasis added)


International Relations Director for the Conference of European Rabbis in Brussels, Philip Carmel, points out that the upper house might still reject the bill. “We believe the Dutch parliament and people, who have a history of tolerance, will see sense and make the right decision.”


full article:


www.shalomlife.com/news/15472/dutch-parl...





Squirrel,


There are plenty we disagree on, but religious freedom is not one of them.


Animal rights ideology is in essence a religion which is trying to be come the official creed.




I agree and said as much to Solf on that Yogurt and Nuts thread.




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3 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2011 - 3:24AM #19
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 28, 2011 -- 10:15PM, Roodog wrote:


Animal rights ideology is in essence a religion which is trying to be come the official creed.



Impossible, with just two seats in parliament.


But you're right, these people can be completely deluded to a degree where it becomes lethally dangerous. The right-wing populist anti-Muslim & pro-Israel Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was assassinated by an animal rights activist, in 2002.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2011 - 10:50AM #20
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,771

Jun 28, 2011 -- 6:23PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 28, 2011 -- 6:07PM, jane2 wrote:


I dont think we are decrying an entire nation...
just what many of us find a disagreeable bill...



Then read again what the very first sentences of the thread say:


So much for the idea that the Netherlands is still a liberal democracy.
The dirty underside of European hate politics is exposed...


The purpose of this thread is not criticism of the bill. It is criticism of a country & of a continent. The bill is merely the opportunity for doing this, the excuse for venting some deep-rooted hatred.





Chari


In a way you are right. I am criticizing a whole country. If a country's policies are racist, that country should be criticized.


1.   Since there is no evidence that kosher slaughter is, in fact, less humane than non-kosher slaughter and since there is evidence that the stun and slaughter meathod used by industrial slaughterhouses is more stressful on the animals than more traditional meathods, this is not an animal rights bill.


2.   This bill only effects observant Muslims and Jews. (In a country which professes religious freedoms)


3.   Since it only effects kosher and halal slaughter and since those voting on the bill knew this fact it is logical to assume that the intent of the legislaters was to effect Muslims and Jews. Therefore it is anti-Muslim and anti-semitic.


As they say, If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck - its a duck.


As I said in my opening, an animal rights bill would be: No slaughter at all.


An animal rights bill could also concern the ethical treatment of animals on the factory farm.


My few remaining Dutch cousins are vegetarians and non-observant. They are more upset about this bill than I am.


I realize you think I am overly sensative about these things. You would would not, if you grew up among the traumatized survivors of Europe's last anti-semitic binge.

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