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Switch to Forum Live View Are the Dutch anti Muslim as well as Anti-Semitic? It appears so.
7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 4:09PM #1
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

So much for the idea that the Netherlands is still a liberal democracy. The dirty underside of European hate politics is exposed in ritual slaughter ban.

This is not an animal rights move - that would be a ban on slaughter. This is anti-muslim and anti-semitic. Interested people should review the studies done by Temple Grandin, Colorado State University Professer and animal activist, as well as the various studies concerning the extra pain inflicted on animals by stunning before slaughter.  


I know we have been here before, but it is time to wake up to reality. Europe is reverting to type.


Dutch Parliament Bans Religious Animal Slaughter


Netherlands passes bill to ban ritual slaughter for kosher and halal meats.


By: Ashely Baylen
Published: June 28th, 2011


. . .

The Animal Rights Party, the first of it’s kind in Europe to win seats in parliament, passed the bill with an astounding 116-30 in the lower house of parliament. In order for the ruling to become a law, the bill must also pass within the upper house.


The bill stipulates that animals must be stunned before being killed. This practice is contrary to both kosher and halal laws that require livestock to be conscious at the time of slaughter.


. . .


 The Muslim and Jewish communities of the Netherlands’ have come together in an effort to prevent this bill from passing. They are fighting for their respective religious freedoms, and believe this proposed law to be a violation.


“The very fact that there is a discussion about this is very painful for the Jewish community,” says Netherland Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs. “Those who survived the war remember the very first law made by the Germans in Holland was the banning of schechita or the Jewish way of slaughtering animals.” (emphasis added)


. . .



Britain’s Chief Jonathan Sacks visited the Netherlands last week to lobby against the proposed law. His argument states that pre-stunning failed in up to ten percent of cases, which actually caused additional and unnecessary pain- more so than the cutting of the throat by a razor sharp knife. (emphasis added)


International Relations Director for the Conference of European Rabbis in Brussels, Philip Carmel, points out that the upper house might still reject the bill. “We believe the Dutch parliament and people, who have a history of tolerance, will see sense and make the right decision.”


full article:


www.shalomlife.com/news/15472/dutch-parl...

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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:10PM #2
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jun 28, 2011 -- 4:09PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


So much for the idea that the Netherlands is still a liberal democracy. The dirty underside of European hate politics is exposed in ritual slaughter ban.

This is not an animal rights move - that would be a ban on slaughter. This is anti-muslim and anti-semitic. Interested people should review the studies done by Temple Grandin, Colorado State University Professer and animal activist, as well as the various studies concerning the extra pain inflicted on animals by stunning before slaughter.  


I know we have been here before, but it is time to wake up to reality. Europe is reverting to type.


Dutch Parliament Bans Religious Animal Slaughter


Netherlands passes bill to ban ritual slaughter for kosher and halal meats.


By: Ashely Baylen
Published: June 28th, 2011


. . .

The Animal Rights Party, the first of it’s kind in Europe to win seats in parliament, passed the bill with an astounding 116-30 in the lower house of parliament. In order for the ruling to become a law, the bill must also pass within the upper house.


The bill stipulates that animals must be stunned before being killed. This practice is contrary to both kosher and halal laws that require livestock to be conscious at the time of slaughter.


. . .


 The Muslim and Jewish communities of the Netherlands’ have come together in an effort to prevent this bill from passing. They are fighting for their respective religious freedoms, and believe this proposed law to be a violation.


“The very fact that there is a discussion about this is very painful for the Jewish community,” says Netherland Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs. “Those who survived the war remember the very first law made by the Germans in Holland was the banning of schechita or the Jewish way of slaughtering animals.” (emphasis added)


. . .



Britain’s Chief Jonathan Sacks visited the Netherlands last week to lobby against the proposed law. His argument states that pre-stunning failed in up to ten percent of cases, which actually caused additional and unnecessary pain- more so than the cutting of the throat by a razor sharp knife. (emphasis added)


International Relations Director for the Conference of European Rabbis in Brussels, Philip Carmel, points out that the upper house might still reject the bill. “We believe the Dutch parliament and people, who have a history of tolerance, will see sense and make the right decision.”


full article:


www.shalomlife.com/news/15472/dutch-parl...




Very discouraging news.




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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:18PM #3
Christianlib
Posts: 21,847

Rocket,


I cannot, and would not, defend this action by the Dutch.  But I would also ask you if you honestly think there is one nation, one "liberal democracy" on the earth without its failings and foibles?  People are flawed.  Societies, being composed of people, are similarly flawed.  The question is, are we working toward better?

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:18PM #4
Erey
Posts: 21,730

I don't know what to think as I am a couple of generations away from the farm.  I don't have experience is slaughtering animals, stunning or not. 


I can't speak to how cruely or humanely halal and kosher butchery is dealt with. 


It does seem an odd focus for Holland,  I mean out of all the issues surrounding human rights and humane treatment of animals this seems a strange one to hang your hat on.

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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:22PM #5
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

To say "this is not an animal rights move" is about as ignorant of real life as this ban may be of Middle Eastern Antiquity's slaughter laws. But one-issue posters of course do not afford realism.


Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:18PM, Erey wrote:


It does seem an odd  focus for Holland,  I mean out of all the issues surrounding human  rights and humane treatment of animals this seems a strange one to hang  your hat on.



We are the only country in the world, I guess, where an animal rights party has seats in parliament. They wrote the law. Here a news report; the photograph shows the two members of parliament from this party hugging...


www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/06/28/kamer-stemt...


It's weird, though, how the killing of animals can be seen as the practise of freedom of religion, isn't it? What about ritual slaughter of humans?

tl;dr
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:34PM #6
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:22PM, CharikIeia wrote:


To say "this is not an animal rights move" is about as ignorant of real life as this ban may be of Middle Eastern Antiquity's slaughter laws. But one-issue posters of course do not afford realism.


Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:18PM, Erey wrote:


It does seem an odd focus for Holland,  I mean out of all the issues surrounding human rights and humane treatment of animals this seems a strange one to hang your hat on.



We are the only country in the world, I guess, where an animal rights party has seats in parliament. They wrote the law. Here a news report; the photograph shows the two members of parliament from this party hugging...


www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/06/28/kamer-stemt...





So basically in Holland they are going to cram as many animal rights laws as possible, regardless of how rather shallow their priorities might be seen?  At least as many as those legistlators can see passed. 


I am not against animal rights but when I think of the abuses that need rectifying I don't think of religious animal slaughter.  I don't think "gosh, life would be better for livestock if the jews and muslims did not slaughter their animals in such a manner".


My thoughts tend to really not even be focused on the slaughter of animals, instead more humane treatement while alive is what I think about.  Are they overcrowded, are they chock full of antibiotics because they live in such squalor, are they so full of hormone treatments their bodies are out of whack.    Those are my thoughts.  Not on comming down on the muslim and jewish modes of slaughter.   Again, not a farm girl but in my limited experience and understanding people want to make the slaughter as quick as possible, quick typically equals painless.  Nobody wants a thrashing, bellowing animal terrified and causing injury. 

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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:49PM #7
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Hi Erey, what you say makes sense, yes. I guess this topic was one where the animal rights party could garner sufficient support from other parties, as it doesn't harm the big financial interests of influential factory farmers.


I didn't vote for them, being a German I didn't even have a vote for Dutch parliament, and if I had one, I certainly would not have voted for them either. But I accept the democratic genesis of this law, and have no problem with it whatsoever.


If this is interfering with religious freedom, I am confident the courts will sort it out.


Concerning this thread here: To decry a whole nation as undemocratic because of a democratic decision is, pardon me, partisan hysteria at best.

tl;dr
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:50PM #8
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:22PM, CharikIeia wrote:


To say "this is not an animal rights move" is about as ignorant of real life as this ban may be of Middle Eastern Antiquity's slaughter laws. But one-issue posters of course do not afford realism.


Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:18PM, Erey wrote:


It does seem an odd focus for Holland,  I mean out of all the issues surrounding human rights and humane treatment of animals this seems a strange one to hang your hat on.



We are the only country in the world, I guess, where an animal rights party has seats in parliament. They wrote the law. Here a news report; the photograph shows the two members of parliament from this party hugging...


www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/06/28/kamer-stemt...


It's weird, though, how the killing of animals can be seen as the practise of freedom of religion, isn't it? What about ritual slaughter of humans?




I don't know anyone who appoves of ritual slaughter of humans.


Personally I have never found the slaughter procedure of Jews (and Muslims) inhumane. During my life in NYS I often ate in kosher deli's. When we occasionally buy hot dogs we normally buy kosher brands for quality.


A few years back in one of my Catholic parish bible study groups in a study of Genesis we discussed the Three Peoples of the book : adherents of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It was an adult study group and one or two were stunned.




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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:55PM #9
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:49PM, CharikIeia wrote:


What you say makes sense, yes. I guess this topic was the one where this part could garner sufficient support from other parties, as it doesn't harm the big financial interests of influential factory farmers.


I didn't vote for them, being a German I didn't even have a vote for Dutch parliament, and if I had one, I certainly would not have voted for them either. But I accept the democratic genesis of this law, and have no problem with it whatsoever.


If this is interfering with religious freedom, I am confident the courts will sort it out.


Concerning this thread here: To decry a whole nation as undemocratic because of a democratic decision is, pardon me, partisan hysteria at best.




I too would expect it to be sorted out.  Nobody wants these kinds of feelings. 


Whereas I can understand how the religious groups would feel targeted and singled out.  In my mind most likely you are dealing with legislators that are simply against any slaughter of animals for meat - period.  And they are chipping away at the ability to slaughter animals for meat.  Since you can't pass a law regarding no slaughter for meat and making that illegal they will make some forms of slaughter illegal.  If you were to ask them these two would probably declare that eating meat is immoral and they expect society to evolve beyond that. 

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7 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 5:58PM #10
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 28, 2011 -- 5:55PM, Erey wrote:


In my mind most likely you are dealing with legislators that are simply against any slaughter of animals for meat - period.  And they are chipping away at the ability to slaughter animals for meat.  Since you can't pass a law regarding no slaughter for meat and making that illegal they will make some forms of slaughter illegal.  If you were to ask them these two would probably declare that eating meat is immoral and they expect society to evolve beyond that. 



They may be naïve, but they are happy to have their topic on the news agenda. For them, it's a win-win situation: even if the law is struck down as unconstitutional in court, the public discussion will have made people aware of also factory farmers' dirty practises.

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