Post Reply
Page 23 of 23  •  Prev 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 23
Switch to Forum Live View News for conservatives: You can't reconcile Ayn Rand and Jesus.
3 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2011 - 10:45AM #221
NATAS
Posts: 844

Jul 17, 2011 -- 7:27AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 


But objectism holds that God cannot be directly contacted through sense perceptions. 



And yet the definition provided claims that objective knowledge can be perceived through a process of concept formation & inductive & deductive logic . . .



And this is how I have gained a knowledge of GOD. I've merely connected all the dots, and recognized the signs.



But Christians and Jews also make the claim that they have "merely connected all the "dots" and recognized the "signs" in their own minds.   What is in your own mind is "subjectivism" not "objectivism".  


The "dots" are objective.  Putting them together is subjective.  


Show me how you "put together" the dots. 


 


Jul 17, 2011 -- 7:27AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


The definition continues ". . . that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest."



But people can be happy by seeking to help others even at the expense of their own self-interest.


Jul 17, 2011 -- 7:27AM, jesus2point3 wrote:



And I'm happy to tell you that's what Islam is all about (and Buddhism too, but without GOD).



So happiness and self-interest is not dependent on God.  Morality is not dependent on God or a religion.  


Jul 17, 2011 -- 7:27AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

 


It's the Christians who believe that a man can become a god, and we are here to please other people. They try to save the day, as they wait for a superman to come and save them also.



I repeat Christians do not believe that a man can become a God.   Christians believe that God can become a man  as they believe Jesus did.  That is how they....connect the dots in their own minds.  


Muslims also try to save the day,  they also wait for the Mahdi-superman to come and save them.


It is in their self-interest to follow the dots that they have connected.  It is in their own self-interest and it makes them happy.  


 


 


Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


I'm happy to tell you that I agree with all the above, and have logically deduced that ALLAH exists. The Infinite Reality that transcends both space & time, the Creator of the seen & unseen.


Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Can you logically show how you deduced that Allah exists?


Can you follow the logic if I told you? Here's the link.  

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Can you logically show how you deduced that Infinite Reality that transcends both space & time, the Creator of the seen & unseen.


Do you understand what the seen & unseen is, in both space & time? What I've told you is that ALLAH is the Infinite Reality, but you are confused evidently, by the next question that you ask . . .

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Can you logically show how you deduced that Infinite Reality which was created by Allah can trancend Allah?


Do you see what I mean?


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


Just because Ayn Rand couldn't figure that part out, doesn't mean I don't agree with her philosophy



But you do mean that you can "figure out" what Ayn Rand could not. 


Correct. In reality, according to the people at Keirsey.com, both her & me are masteminds.


I've merely mastered my mind, and have my peace of mind, as I kill some time tellin' you the truth. If you can't cope with that reality, don't blame me my friend. It certainly isn't my fault, and original sin is a joke. I'm not here to correct the problems that you perceive existed before my arrival.


The truth that has set this man free, is simply responsibility for all that I think, and everything I do, and in reality it feels like Nirvana. I know that all is going as planned, and don't imagine a world that will never be.


Do you understand me?

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


 


 


[ quote author=91832509 post=502430881]


Well, I never said I was a Christian, although i was born into that faith. While I've never been an atheist, I was an agnostic for many years - simply because I couldn't lie to myself.


 

Jul 15, 2011 -- 5:02PM, NATAS wrote:


Well I am not a mastermind which is why I thought that you were according to you B-net name.


the truth is that you didn't think whatsoever, what you did was to ASSume. If you had the proper knowledge you may have said something else, but instead you are confused.



 


[ quote author=91832509 post=502430881]


To be a Christian is generally meant that you believe a man was a god, but I know that is impossible.



To be a Christian is generally meant that you believe that Jesus was both a man and God. 


Not "a" god because that would mean that there is more than one God and Christians do not believe that.    


Christian philosophers can logically deduced that if God is Omnipotent then it can be logically deduced that Jesus can be both Man And God.   


Now if Allah is not Omnipotent then and then Allah cannot be both God and man.


God is ALLAH, and in reality is Omnipotent, therefore has no reason to become a man, or have a son also. Christian philosophers have merely deluded themselves, as the manipulate the minds of others.
 


 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 We are merely finite beings, born to die - and if you look at it objectively, you'll know that I don't lie, that's just the way it goes. 



If you look at it objectively when you are dead you are dead.  There is no objective evidence to show that you go to paradise or that you are reborn into another body. 


and there is no objective evidence that you don't. In reality this life is all you've got, and reincarnation is all in the mind of those fooled by that cosmik debris


 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 In reality I'm now a Muslim mastermind, who has simply mastered my mind.



.

Jul 15, 2011 -- 5:02PM, NATAS wrote:


In reality a mastermind is:


"The Mastermind Rational is one of the 16 role variants of the Keirsey Temperament Sorter, a
self-assessed personality questionnaire designed to help people better understand themselves.


They make up about one percent of the population."



  Of course Muhammad  is no Prophet of Allah because there is no Allah.



What makes you think you know what you're talking about?



The same thing that makes you think you know what you are talking about.  


 


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 Do you believe you know everything?



I don't even believe that I am a mastermind.  


If I believed I knew everything already I would not need to post with you. 


If I believed I knew everything already I would have known you were a Muslim and not a Christian. 


What makes you believe that you are a mastermind


I'm merely repeating what the people at Keirsey.com have told me about myself. I don't make anything up on my own, and man creates nothing from nothing.
In reality only GOD is the all knowing ONE, but many people think they know what's going on, as they decry the way things are going - not me.

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


 


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


It could be that you haven't got all the knowledge that you need to reach the conclusion that you've made.



And it can also be that you haven't got all the knowledge that you need to reach the conclusion that you've made.


I have done a lot of stuying on religion, philosophy and science.  I have talked to a lot of people about those subjects.   That is how I have aquired the knowledge that I have.  


But there is no fuching way that I will claim that I know everything or that I can't be wrong. 


I am among other things a born again skeptic which means I have an open mind.   If you can give me good solid reasons to show me that I am wrong I will change my mind.  It has happened before and will happen again. 


Unfortunately, my time has run out to continue this post, I've gotta' go to work. I'll try and come back and respond again when I've got the time on my hands - metaphorically speaking of course.





Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2011 - 10:42AM #222
jesus2point3
Posts: 248
I believe I left off somewhere around here, but please correct me if i'm wrong. If I'm covering ground already explained, forgive me for repeating myself. But because the time & space has CHANGED, I HOPE you know I may use different words - but the truth will be the same.

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


 

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 We are merely finite beings, born to die - and if you look at it objectively, you'll know that I don't lie, that's just the way it goes. 



If you look at it objectively when you are dead you are dead.  There is no objective evidence to show that you go to paradise or that you are reborn into another body. 


Agreed, when you are dead you are dead, but there's no evidence to show that you don't go to paradise, objective or otherwise. As for being born, and reborn again, and again, and again, and again. I can assure you that I've never been here before, even though I'm virtually jesus christ. The "International Fellowship of Christians & Jews" have even labeled me Mr. Jesus 2.3, and pushed the envelope with "The God of Abrhaham", in reality you can fool some of the people all the time, or all of the people some of the time - but do you know who is playing silly tricks with your mind? Is it the Rabbi or me? I'm merely telling you the truth about what I know, the rest you've gotta' figure out on your own. 


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 In reality I'm now a Muslim mastermind, who has simply mastered my mind. . .

 

What makes you think you know what you're talking about?



The same thing that makes you think you know what you are talking about.


Generally speaking, I'll agree with this statement, but you may still be confused by what I say. The reason for this is that you don't have the same knowledge that I've got in my head, simply because you are not me. The way we acquire it is the same of course, but what we acquire is based on where we are in time & space - wouldn't you agree?


 .

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 Do you believe you know everything?



I don't even believe that I am a mastermind.  

If I believed I knew everything already I would not need to post with you. 

If I believed I knew everything already I would have known you were a Muslim and not a Christian. 

What makes you believe that you are a mastermind


I've simply taken a test, and that is the conclusion made by others. I'm merely repeating what I've been told, but I know that I'm the master of my own domain, and I've got control of my own mind also.


Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


It could be that you haven't got all the knowledge that you need to reach the conclusion that you've made.



And it can also be that you haven't got all the knowledge that you need to reach the conclusion that you've made.

I have done a lot of stuying on religion, philosophy and science.  I have talked to a lot of people about those subjects.   That is how I have aquired the knowledge that I have.


And the same with my, my friend. In reality I've done more than that though, and have done a lot of reflection concerning the life I've lived, and my reason for being here also. I HOPE you know I haven't CHANGED anything concerning my history, or the history of the world.  When I use a word I rely on the dictionary to define it, unless I find it wrong - and then I'll explain what I mean.
Truth is a word many get confused about, and Freedom is another one. The Truth that sets a being free, is responsibility - not believing some man was a god who'll return to save the day. Take responsibility for all that you think, and everything you do, and you too will find Nirvana. It's merely a feeling I call peace of mind, and knowing that all is right with the world. You may define it anyway you like - if you ever attain it..

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


But there is no fuching way that I will claim that I know everything or that I can't be wrong. 

I am among other things a born again skeptic which means I have an open mind.   If you can give me good solid reasons to show me that I am wrong I will change my mind.  It has happened before and will happen again. 


And I've never claimed that I know everything, for only ALLAH is the All Knowing ONE. I'm just one smart as* know it all, who knows what the absolute truth is. The "all" that I know is limited by what I've acquired in my life in both space & time, just as all you know is too.
It's good to be a skeptic with an open mind, and I commend you for that also.
What I can tell you is that I was struck by the truth about 15 years ago, but in reality I wasn't searching for it. I didn't see any hallucinations like Buddha, nor did the devil talk to me as he supposedly did to Jesus 1.0. The Angel Gabriel didn't deliver God's Word, but I was indeed nurtured in the womb of Gabrielle, and delivered to tell the truth of our common reality - whether you believe it, or not..

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:



Of course, you've still got time to figure it out - but know you don't have forever. I HOPE you know you may CHANGE your mind, but nothing can CHANGE the truth - objectively speaking of course .



It is not a question of  CHANGING the truth, it is a question of determing what IS the truth, objectively speaking of course. 

And remember Objectivism is a philosophy and Islam is a religion.   

They are two different categories.   Whatever truth she discovered it was by using reason and not revealation from Allah.   Gabriel didn't whisper in her ear. 

Ayn Rand was a philosopher not a prophet of Allah.


Agreed completely. She wasn't one of those philosophers who couldn't decide whether we existed, even if she couldn't reason the existence of GOD.
Muhammad was the last prophet of GOD, and Jesus 1.0 was the one who preceded him. Peace be upon all of God's Prophets, and know that they didn't do it for a profit.
Buddha was a guy born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and ran from his repsonsibilities to discover himself - and that's what he eventually did. I HOPE you know he didn't need any CHANGE to do it then, in his time & space, but the time & space we live in is different, and we all need a little CHANGE to survive. I HOPE you understand that you don't need very much though, unless you can't control your wants & desires. I don't mind that you may want more than me, but there's no need for you to desire that the state help you or me, or anyone else whatsoever - if you know what the absolute truth is.


.

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:

 

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:



God is the Infinite Reality that transcends time & space, the Creator of the seen & unseen.

And therefore cannot objectively proved to exist!



Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


Says who? I've merely put my mind to the task, and connected all the dots, isn't that what the scientists do?



Show me the dots!


I believe I've provided a link once before, but this one is where you can start also.  Simply decide which links you want to click when you get there, but know your time is limited. Unlike this life though, you can come back again, and try it a different way. I've provided many links to wikipedia & youtube also, to help put it all together in your mind. I've been told that it's quite a fun ride, but then again others have trouble coping with the reality I provide. C'est la Vie, or Joie de Vivre, the choice is totally up to you - but the end is all the same. Until the next moment arrives.


.

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:

Scientist do attempt to connect the dots about the natural universe. 


Philosphers connect the dots in the metaphyscial universe. 

Theologians conntect the dots in the supernatural universe.


Now there's a trinity of individuals who connect the dots to a trinity of conceptual realities. I'm merely one individual who has been given the gift, of connecting them all together.
Although I would disagree with how you define philosophers & theologians.
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language . . .

Theology is the systematic and rational study of religion and its influences and of the nature of religious truths . . ..

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


 Do you believe in the big bang theory, and what about evolution?



Yes I believe in both the scientific-naturalistic theories of the big bang and evolution.  

I do not believe that God had anything to do with either.


And what do you think got the ball rolling in the first place - before time & space began at all? The truth is that it was the Infinite Reality that transcends both space & time, the Creator of it all. Some say it's GOD, while I say it's ALLAH, but in my mind it's Reason plain & simple.  There's a reason for all that has happened in space & time, and I'm quite comfortable with how it's going. You can't blame me for the mess you may think the world is in, nor am I here to save the day. I'm just a guy killin' some time, and tellin' the truth about reality. 
What is about to happen has already been set in motion, are you ready for that moment to begin? I know that I am, and I've got my peace of mind.


 .

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 Nobody was there to see it all happen, but almost everybody thinks that it did.



But theories are made and proven to be true or false by scientist.   

And  scientific theories can change or be discarded entirely when new evidence emerges. 

"The Truth" in science can change.  

"The Truth" in religion cannot. 


In reality the truth can never change, but the words we use to describe it can. There have been men in both space & time who have done a good job of explaining it to others, and historically I believe this trinity did it the best: Buddha, did it without GOD at all; and Jesus 1.0 did it for GOD, although he was misunderstood; Muhammad put it all together, and Islam is a complete system that can give both people & society some peace and quiet, but many don't understand this truth. Peace be upon that trinity of men, but know that none of them were divine, and they weren't gods either. Still, some worship them as though they were, but know that simply ain't my fault.
 


 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:



And what about time itself?

 Nobody can see, hear, or touch it, but in reality it truly exists. What you do takes place in time, and it takes time to think it through in your mind. 



I am not disputing the existence of time. I can percieve the existence of time through the changes I see in existence.   But time exists independently of my mind or your mind.   Time existed before any minds existed.   Therefore the existence of time is objectively a truth.


And so too is GOD then. Where do you think knowledge comes from? Do you understand the word epistimology? I know I exist, and have existed since I was born, but I didn't plan my life out ahead of time. Now that I've reflected on the places I've been in space & time, I'm able to connect all the dots, and know my reason for being. I was an agnostic for many years, but have transcended that now.


 

 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 We are merely finite beings, that were born to die -

That can be objectively proved to be true.



Everything that lives is a finite in that we live and die.  

But it has not been shown to be true scientifically that human beings are somehow, in someway survive after death.    

Some philosophers have reasoned that we do. 

Most religions believe that we do. 

But there is no scientifc evidence for the existence of human being living after death.  At least none that I am aware of.


It's true that our physical being returns to dust, but what of the energy contained within us? Some call it spirit, and others call it the soul - but does anybody know where it goes?



If we want to go by majority rules, then it would appear that it goes somewhere. I'm not one of those who is enamored by democracy though, for I know it's nothing but mob rule. I've simply figured it all out by myself, with a little help from space & time, and the Infinite Reality that transcends it all - that being I call ALLAH.
I can't do it for you, you must do it for yourself, but know that you are not alone. I'm not here to force anything on you - the jihad is all your own.


Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


   Of course we agree on this, but you & me are still alive. What makes you think you're going to die, but making observations on reality, and then you logically deduce what the truth is -



Yes we can both agree that we are alive and are going to die.   What makes us both agree that we are going to die is based on the obrservation that others have died.  By death I mean that this body will cease to be alive.  It dosen't matter what your philosophy or your religion is the fact is, is that death does exist.  


Thank God for the fact that we can agree on this, because there are some who will argue otherwise, and because we are here for only a moment in space & time, is there any reason to HOPE for more CHANGE, or seek profit from our fellow man? I HOPE you know you can't take anything with you when you're gone - that's just the way it goes.


 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


 

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:

 


well that's what I did before I decided to recite the Shahada - I didn't do it based on faith.



Do you mean that you came to believe in Islam through reason and not through faith? 


correct..

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


 

 

 

Jul 15, 2011 -- 5:02PM, NATAS wrote:


Allah, Jinns, Angels cannot be objectively proven to be true.  




 

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


As I've said there are such things as the seen & unseen. One is called the physical reality, and the other is the conceptual reality - and trust me, they both exist.



And as I replied I do believe in the things you mentioned such as time exists.   

 

 

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


Your body is the physical reality that contains your thoughts - and they are the concepts within your mind.



My thoughts, my mind are contained within my brain.   No brain no mind, no concepts.  However I can also imagine concepts and things that are not "real" that have no basis in reality. 


You can imagine all sorts of things, but where did they come from in the first place? If you imagine them do they have any basis in reality, or are they simply that which is unseen, that really exist in time & space - hidden from your mind.


 .

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 Everything that you perceive through contact with your senses, in reality is physical also, but the truth is that it isn't you;



I agree. The things is percieve and come into contact is not me, they are perceived by me but they exist independently and separtely from me. 


correct, you have reasoned this through well, but there are others who imagine it's all a dream that exists in their minds only - they are the fools who have problems coping with reality, and imagine a world that will never be. Like Lennon, & Lenin both.   


 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 The time that you have to live your life though isn't something you're senses contact. The truth is that your mind figures that out, and your actions take place in time also.



Again I have no problem with believing that time exists. 

 

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


Do you understand this explanation my friend, or has it all messed with your mind?



I understand that you cannot "see" time with your eyes and you can perceive time with your mind.  

However God, Jinns, and Angels are different concepts than time.


The concept you hold of GOD is that which you've inherited by your parents. Same goes for Jinns & Angels too, you've simply been manipulated by others to believe what it is you think exists in space & time, that's just the way it goes.
 


Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


This is where the West has lost it's senses, in the belief that we exist to help each other. In reality it's a vestige of Christianity, whether or not you believe that Jesus 1.0 was a god.



The ideas that we should help each other is not a vestige of only Christianity or of "the west". 

The "ONLY" philosophy that I am aware of that makes the claim that we should not be concerned with helping each other is Objectivism. 

I know of no religion that makes the claim that we should not help each other.  

If you ask other Muslims wether or not they "should" help each other the overhelming number of them will say yes.  The purpose of paying Zakat is to help poor Muslims.    

And paying Zakat is one of the five pillars of Islam. 

If you are making the claim that you should not help others, especially poor Muslims then you cannot be a Muslim because it violates a core principle of Islam.


in reality you are confusing the how with the why, that's all there is to it. Why a Muslim does these things, is in the HOPE that when the CHANGE comes, they will find themselves in Paradise.


Same goes for the Buddhist also. Nirvana is a selfish goal one tries to achieve for themself, but to get there you must know how, and then do as you are told - but once again, you must do it yourself. 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


Buddhism is more like Islam in that they both teach personal responsibility for all that you think, and everything you do, even though Buddhists think the goal is to reach Nirvana,



Any Christian, Muslim or Jew who believes that there religion teaches the  concept of "freewill"  teaches personal responsibility.  

Even an atheist who believes in freewill believes in personal responsiblity.

In most respects Islam and Judiaism are more like each other than Christianity or any other religion. 


Agreed. Free will in reality only goes so far, and the truth is that you are not a totally free agent. The decisions you make are based on the knowledge you have, and also you're inherited traits. You can sometimes teach an old doG new tricks, but God doesn't change reality, all the change happens quite naturally, and all is going according to a plan. 


 

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:

Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 

 while we Muslims know this life is but a test - but neither believe some guy will arrive to save the day.



Muslims do believe that some guy named Muhammad came to save the day by providing answers to help you pass the test.


Not in reality, he merely came to reveal the truth that had been revealed by others in different places in space & time, and I'm here to remind others of that.


  

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:


Muslims also believe that some guy, the Mahdi will arrive  some day to help save the day for Muslims.


some do, some don't.

Jul 16, 2011 -- 6:47PM, NATAS wrote:

 


Jul 14, 2011 -- 6:42AM, jesus2point3 wrote:


 Those that believe in HOPE&CHANGE, are easily manipulated by those who seek power over them, while I know what the truth is, and I bow down to no man at all - I do treat them with respect when they deserve it, simply because that's what I desire for myself.



I also do not bow down to any mad.    I am both cynical and skeptical of men who seek power or claim want to help others.     I treat them with some respect IF they deserve it, if the don't I treat them with tolerance.  

By the way did you see the movie "Atlas Shrugged"? 


As the song goes, we all have gotta' serve somebody, I merely have chosen to serve ALLAH.
Nope, haven't seen the movie, but I did read the book, and I've read another called "Behold the Man", but it's not by Ayn Rand. You could say that I'm doing what that man did, but I'm doing it in reverse - or am I doing it for the future? Just remember, the past is but an echo of reality, and the future a figment of your imagination. The truth is that reality is here at this very moment, in both space & time.




Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2011 - 9:22AM #223
Goshen
Posts: 10

I started a thread a while ago about the bizarre attraction right-wing Christians have for Ayn. Given she supported abortion, that is strange enough. 


Some people think Jesus taught self-sufficiency.  Nope. That was Emerson and Franklin. Jesus taught helping one another and his followers "shared all things."


The oddest phrase that came up was "not charity but theft." If a society or government enacts community-based policies instead of faux laisse-faire policies, "forcing" people to be charitible, then those policies are theft, not charity.  Apparently the government is taking away your choice to be selfish.  That one took me aback. Since then I've across that same phrase elsewhere on the net.


The idea seems to be that a country cannot decide the philosophical foundations of its own policies.  People with as diverse beliefs as Albert Schwitzer, Dorothy Day, Mohammad, talked about selfless giving, it does not follow that such a philosophy need be a theocracy, but a community-based foundation rather than a profit-based one.


Our principle document talks about the pursuit of happiness.  The fact is that happiness is not an individual thing (Thich Nhat Hanh among others). It is impossible to be happy when those around you are in misery.  Unless you're Ayn Rand.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2011 - 1:39PM #224
IDBC
Posts: 4,475

Howdy Goshen


 


Aug 19, 2011 -- 9:22AM, Goshen wrote:


I started a thread a while ago about the bizarre attraction right-wing Christians have for Ayn. Given she supported abortion, that is strange enough. 



Not only did Ayn Rand support abortion but she was an atheist. 


The attraction that some right-wing Christians have with Ayn Rand only has to do with her economic philosophy lassiez fair capitalism


And there other left-wing Christians who favor socialism.  


Aug 19, 2011 -- 9:22AM, Goshen wrote:


Some people think Jesus taught self-sufficiency.  Nope. That was Emerson and Franklin. Jesus taught helping one another and his followers "shared all things."



Some people think that Jesus taught the "Protestant Work Ethic". 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_et...


"It is argued that Protestants beginning with Martin Luther had reconceptualised worldly work as a duty which benefits both the individual and society as a whole."


Aug 19, 2011 -- 9:22AM, Goshen wrote:


The oddest phrase that came up was "not charity but theft."



The difference between charity and theft is that charity is a voluntary redistribution of wealth and theft is a forced redestribution of wealth. 


I don't think that paying taxes is a voluntary redistribution of wealth. 


Aug 19, 2011 -- 9:22AM, Goshen wrote:


The idea seems to be that a country cannot decide the philosophical foundations of its own policies.  People with as diverse beliefs as Albert Schwitzer, Dorothy Day, Mohammad, talked about selfless giving, it does not follow that such a philosophy need be a theocracy, but a community-based foundation rather than a profit-based one.



Albert Schwitzer, Dorothy Day, and Muhammad, and Jesus were not economist.  


While these people did speak about selfless giving they did not say how much a person "should" give.  And there is a difference between giving to a charity and paying taxes.  


 

Aug 19, 2011 -- 9:22AM, Goshen wrote:


Our principle document talks about the pursuit of happiness. 



And that pricinciple document is not the Bible nor the Quran. 


 

Aug 19, 2011 -- 9:22AM, Goshen wrote:


 The fact is that happiness is not an individual thing (Thich Nhat Hanh among others). It is impossible to be happy when those around you are in misery. 



The fact is that individuals can be happy despite the fact that there is misery in the world. 


I know that there are times when I am happy and that other people are happy at times. 


Of course there are also times when I am not happy.  


It would be a gloomy depressing life without happiness.   It would be a gloomy depressing life if all I thought about was the fact that there is misery in the world.    


And there is the rumor that there will always be misery in the world.  


 


 


 


 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2011 - 4:40PM #225
Goshen
Posts: 10

A society can decide to use social justice, or anything else, as a guiding principle. Then we're on the job of discussing how to do that.


Dorothy Day, Jesus, Schwitzer were not economists. That was not their jobs. Their job was to show us basic principles upon which we can create an economy.  Economy is flexible.  We decide how to use it. We use it to achieve our goals. Right now our goal is corporate-faire. Doesn't have to be. Economics doesn't have a particular point of view. We just argue about how to use the principles of economics to reach certain goals.  That's a good thing.


 If you let economics (free market) create your principles, why would you be discussing anything on a faith & values forum?  (See Harvey Cox.)


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2011 - 6:55AM #226
watcher59
Posts: 1,606

Balancing the two great commandments with Rand isn't difficult. Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself. Self love is built into Christian teaching.


Some people think Jesus taught self-sufficiency.  Nope. That was Emerson and Franklin. Jesus taught helping one another and his followers "shared all things."


They shared all things by consensus as opposed to edict. When Jesus fed the 5000, whom did he tax to get the loaves and fishes?


The oddest phrase that came up was "not charity but theft." If a society or government enacts community-based policies instead of faux laisse-faire policies, "forcing" people to be charitible, then those policies are theft, not charity. 


Where does Jesus teach that Ceasar should be the conduit for charity? Where does Jesus teach that charity is anything other than a matter of personal choice? How do you describe an act that deprives a person of money or property without their permission?


Apparently the government is taking away your choice to be selfish. 


It is also taking away your choice to be charitable. You stated that Jesus and his followers shared everything. Was that a matter of choice or edict? “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”. Obviously, even Jesus supported separation of church and state.


The idea seems to be that a country cannot decide the philosophical foundations of its own policies.  People with as diverse beliefs as Albert Schwitzer, Dorothy Day, Mohammad, talked about selfless giving, it does not follow that such a philosophy need be a theocracy, but a community-based foundation rather than a profit-based one.


The source of a philosophy is irrelevant. When it is forced upon any who disagree, it is tyranny. By law the U.S. government is as responsible for protecting the rights of the individual as they are providing for the common defense or promoting the general welfare.  


Our principle document talks about the pursuit of happiness.  The fact is that happiness is not an individual thing (Thich Nhat Hanh among others). It is impossible to be happy when those around you are in misery.  Unless you're Ayn Rand.


The pursuit of happiness is as individual as the interpretation of the nature of happiness. Your perception or interpretation is no better or worse than any other. You are entitled to believe whatever you wish. You are not, however, entitled to dictate to others what they are to believe or practice.

How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2011 - 10:36AM #227
Goshen
Posts: 10

You sound like the helpless victim of a dictatorship.Societies can and do make decisions on their priorities and values. So far democratic systems have been the best method to do this. Yes, our system is most seriously flawed, but to pretend that we are helpless victims would have even Ayn gagging.


Choose to be your own little individual self if you like, but we do live in a society which is capable of making these decisions, and WILL make them, one way or another. Pretending we don't is narcissism and/or delusion. 


I embraced classical anarchy for a period of my life. It sounds so good.  However, I saw that it simply allows a powerful minority to set the agenda. Which is fine with Ayn.


U.S. democracy may be slipping down that steep slope, I admit.


However, Society will decide whether Ron Paul is right: society steps over the man in a coma as the cost of freedom, or society helps the man in the coma.


Simple choice. Complicated politics. Ayn tries to make everything soooo simple. That's her appeal. An avoidance tactic.


Pick your values.  Which side are you on? Fight for it. Stop whining about "forced charity."


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2011 - 9:07AM #228
Goshen
Posts: 10

I apologize for getting testy in my last post.  Philosophical discussion can only go so far until we get tangled in our own heads. The U.S. is forty-sixth down the list in infant mortality rates (CIA statistics). We're talking about babies here. One of my student's mother died of diabetes; she did not have adequate health care and no insurance. Who cares what Ayn or Marx or anyone else thought? How best do we care for ourselves and one another?  I'll drop out of the discussion.  It's run its course for me. Thanks. And apology for crankiness.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 23 of 23  •  Prev 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 23
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook