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3 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2011 - 5:26PM #21
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

thats why they pray for sportmanship and health

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2011 - 10:59PM #22
Vistronic
Posts: 1,832

In great contests, each party claims to act in accordance with the  will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong. God cannot be for and  against the same thing at the same time.


- Abraham Lincoln, memorandum dated September 30, 1862


lifted from here


After losing the Second Battle of Bull Run, Lincoln wrote his famous  Meditation on the Divine Will:


 


The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will  of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong.  God can not be for and against the same thing at  the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God's purpose is something different  from the purpose of either party -- and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of  the best adaptation to effect His purpose.

 


I am almost ready to say this is probably true -- that God wills this contest, and wills that it shall  not end yet. By His mere quiet power, on the minds of the now contestants, He could have either saved  or destroyed the Union without a human contest. Yet the contest began. And having begun He could  give the final victory to either side any day. Yet the contest proceeds.


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3 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2011 - 11:55AM #23
TPaine
Posts: 9,427

Jun 4, 2011 -- 11:38PM, Vistronic wrote:


Is this not the correct ruling?


See this


"The  First Amendment prohibits governments from interfering with  Americans'  rights to freely express their religious beliefs, and  accordingly the  U.S. Supreme Court has maintained that Congress may  convene every day  with a prayer," Perry said in a statement.


So congress can but school can not....?




Actually, Perry was wrong. The SCOTUS decision in Abington School District v. Schempp 374 US 293 (1963) found that school sponsored sectarian prayer violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment. The Father of the Constitution and author of the Bill of Rights, James Madison, even opposed Congressional chaplains paid by public funds.

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?

In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.

The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor.

If Religion consist in voluntary acts of individuals, singly, or voluntarily associated, and it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents shd discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at their own expence. How small a contribution from each member of Congs wd suffice for the purpose? How just wd it be in its principle? How noble in its exemplary sacrifice to the genius of the Constitution; and the divine right of conscience? Why should the expence of a religious worship be allowed for the Legislature, be paid by the public, more than that for the Ex. or Judiciary branch of the Govt

Were the establishment to be tried by its fruits, are not the daily devotions conducted by these legal Ecclesiastics, already degenerating into a scanty attendance, and a tiresome formality?

Rather than let this step beyond the landmarks of power have the effect of a legitimate precedent, it will be better to apply to it the legal aphorism de minimis non curat lex: or to class it cum "maculis quas aut incuria fudit, aut humana parum cavit natura." -- James Madison: from Detached Memoranda (c.a.1817)


"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2011 - 12:11PM #24
TPaine
Posts: 9,427

Jun 7, 2011 -- 1:37AM, Vistronic wrote:


Speculation. I do not think Islam would be tolerated, because some use it as excuse to commit terror.. at least that is how it is viewed by many... 15 years ago not as big a problem but now? Look they have equal rights but who wants someone killing them? I see the others allowed except maybe wicca. It gets a bad rap.


We all know Christianity is what we are talking about the defacto state religion.



Some Christians also use their religion as an excuse to commit terrorist acts. Such organizations as the Ku Klux Klan, the Army of God, and various Christian Identity groups do so. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 05, 2011 - 4:35PM #25
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Jul 2, 2011 -- 12:11PM, TPaine wrote:


Jun 7, 2011 -- 1:37AM, Vistronic wrote:


Speculation. I do not think Islam would be tolerated, because some use it as excuse to commit terror.. at least that is how it is viewed by many... 15 years ago not as big a problem but now? Look they have equal rights but who wants someone killing them? I see the others allowed except maybe wicca. It gets a bad rap.


We all know Christianity is what we are talking about the defacto state religion.



Some Christians also use their religion as an excuse to commit terrorist acts. Such organizations as the Ku Klux Klan, the Army of God, and various Christian Identity groups do so. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.





there are more JDL members than all these other organizations combined

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 10:25AM #26
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

What's JDL?

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 11:25AM #27
amcolph
Posts: 18,010

Jul 6, 2011 -- 10:25AM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


What's JDL?





Jewish Defense League


www.jdl.org/


 


They are thought to have about 15,000 members.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2011 - 12:45PM #28
TPaine
Posts: 9,427

Jul 5, 2011 -- 4:35PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Jul 2, 2011 -- 12:11PM, TPaine wrote:


Jun 7, 2011 -- 1:37AM, Vistronic wrote:


Speculation. I do not think Islam would be tolerated, because some use it as excuse to commit terror.. at least that is how it is viewed by many... 15 years ago not as big a problem but now? Look they have equal rights but who wants someone killing them? I see the others allowed except maybe wicca. It gets a bad rap.


We all know Christianity is what we are talking about the defacto state religion.



Some Christians also use their religion as an excuse to commit terrorist acts. Such organizations as the Ku Klux Klan, the Army of God, and various Christian Identity groups do so. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.




there are more JDL members than all these other organizations combined



The point is, Dave, that a small percentage of believers in many of the world's religions use their beliefs as an excuse to commit terrorist acts. The vast majority of members in all such religions condemn such actions. I was responding to the post that stated that Islam should not be tolerated because of the actions of a few of it's adherents, while other religions that also have a few adherents that commit terrorist acts get a free pass. Wiccans have the same equal rights as any other religion.


BTW, the United States has no state religion, the Constitution expressly forbids it.

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." -- General Smedley Butler: War is a Racket (1935)

"War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men. Though you follow the trade of the warrior, you do so in the spirit of Washington — not of Genghis Khan. For Americans, only threat to our way of life justifies resort to conflict." - General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: Graduation Exercises at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, USA at 3 June 1947
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2011 - 6:06PM #29
anidominus
Posts: 105

This is what happens whey you destroy freedom.  The freedom of Chrisitian communities have been partially destroyed because by some supreme court edict nothing to do with Creationism could be taught in local schools dominated by Chrisitian people.


When I was in high school about 25 years ago we learned a little bit about the creation process as it relates to Christianity, budisam, and a few other religions.  I think we spent maybe half an hour to an hour on it before we moved on to what science said about it.  What I don't remember is if this was done in science class or world history.  In either case, is always better to give people the option to do these kinds of things.


What really baffles my mind is how peple who say they love freedom want to be able to smoke weed as they walk down the street, have abortions, marry people of the same sex under the guise of freedom, but lord forbid a community of people want to execrise their freedom to teach their kids something in their schools that they pay for with their tax dollars.


I just got through reading an article the other day about some people wanting to make a 51st state out of California.  One of the people there stated that if the conservatives didn't like how california did business then they should move to arizona.  Yet I bet this same person would object to creationism being taught in school and would yell bloody murder if we told those who didn't like it to move.    Hypocracy.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2011 - 9:26PM #30
amcolph
Posts: 18,010

Jul 15, 2011 -- 6:06PM, anidominus wrote:


This is what happens whey you destroy freedom.  The freedom of Chrisitian communities have been partially destroyed because by some supreme court edict nothing to do with Creationism could be taught in local schools dominated by Chrisitian people.



Not all Christians are Young Earth Creationists, and not all of them want Creationism taught in public school science classes.  Perhaps you should be more specific.


When I was in high school about 25 years ago we learned a little bit about the creation process as it relates to Christianity, budisam, and a few other religions.  I think we spent maybe half an hour to an hour on it before we moved on to what science said about it.  What I don't remember is if this was done in science class or world history.  In either case, is always better to give people the option to do these kinds of things.



It makes a significant difference whether it was World History or Science.


What really baffles my mind is how peple who say they love freedom want to be able to smoke weed as they walk down the street, have abortions, marry people of the same sex under the guise of freedom, but lord forbid a community of people want to execrise their freedom to teach their kids something in their schools that they pay for with their tax dollars.



It must be an unusual community indeed in which all the taxpayers, all the parents and all the students are YEC Christians.  Even so, to teach young-Earth creationism as science would be to seriously mislead the students, as it is definitely not science.


 




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