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Locked: The Fate of Christians in the Middle East
2 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2011 - 10:21PM #351
habesor
Posts: 4,856

Sherri,


The anti-boycott law does not limit freedom of speech. It is a law against boycotts and you will find similar laws in many places in the democratic world including the USA. The only laws dealing with service in the IDF is that certain non-Jewish minorities are not subject to the draft but can serve if they volunteer. Other non-Jewish minorities are drafted.  Finally, your not being aware of discriminating laws and practices against religious minorities may be more a function of your lack of interest in such things than a lack of such laws and practices. 


Habesor

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2011 - 10:18AM #352
LeahOne
Posts: 14,490

So what Habesor has explained is that certain minorities within Israeli society are allowed to choose to serve, rather than be drafted automatically.


Sounds like the 'discrimination' there is against the Jews, if there's any discrimination.....


It's also beginning to seem as though much of the trouble in the Negev and Sinai *both* is due to a cultural conflict between the Bedouin and the 'town' communities.  Most modern nation-states aren't able to accomodate semi-nomadic tribes.....  The US tried setting aside reservations for such groups, but where the Hopi and Navajo nations could manage, and the Cherokee adapted - other tribes like the Sioux just couldn't maintain their ancestral ways and stay within the boundaries. 


Not to 'defend' the unjust policies of past US administrations, or their idea of de-NDN-izing the NA peoples - but anthropology hadn't really begun back then, and nobody really took seriously the idea of NDN sovereignty. 


Was it racial prejudice which got the likes of the Mormons and the Amish better treatment from the US government?  Or was it religious prejudice because those groups were Christian?  I have no idea.  I'd love to think that the US had matured in its outlook towards 'minority' cultures.....  there is still resistance to religious practices which include animal killing (whether for food or 'sacrifice').


What would the US be doing if faced with semi-nomadic tribes with little 'national' loyalty and a long history of smuggling (as certain seaside towns in England were historically known for their smugglers!)???


What did the Russians do with their similar minorities - the Nenets(Samoyed), Aleuts, Sami (Lopars/Lapps), etc, etc?


How have the Chinese treated their 'indigenous' peoples?

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2011 - 12:52PM #353
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,479
Habesor, The AntiBoycott law is a fascist, undemocratic law that attacks freedom of speech, of certain speech, making it a discriminatory law. It illustrates how undemocratic Israel has become. A poster here impled discrimination only flows from laws discriminatory on their face, and I am unaware of any post in this thread identifying one single illustration of that, by a nation's laws in the Middle East.  Show me laws on the books in Middle East nations that discriminate on their face against Christians. So far, noone has identified any such laws of any nation. Now, that cetainly does not mean there is not discrimination, in practice, that was never my assertion. Sherri
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2011 - 10:44PM #354
habesor
Posts: 4,856

Sherri, you wrote:


"Habesor, The AntiBoycott law is a fascist, undemocratic law that attacks freedom of speech, of certain speech, making it a discriminatory law."


Sorry, Sherri, but boycotts are not speech but are acts that are aimed at causing economic harm to those with whom you disagee. If anything boycotts seek to limit freedom of speech and as such were widely popular with the Nazis and Fascists as political actions in their rise to power in the 1930's. In the case of the pro-Palestinian BDS movement, they advocate boycotting Israeli universities. How someone can claim that such action promotes freedom of speech or the free exchange of ideas is beyond my comprehension. I suppose it belongs in the same intellectual cesspool as those who argue that Timothy McVeigh was just expressing a political opinion when he committed mass murder in Oklahoma City or the 9/11 terrorists were just expressing Third World disagreement with American imperialism, both perfectly legitimate forms of free speech.


"A poster here implied discrimination only flows from laws discriminatory on their face, and I am unaware of any post in this thread identifying one single illustration of that, by a nation's laws in the Middle East. Show me laws on the books in Middle East nations that discriminate on their face against Christians." 


Sherri, 


There are quite a few laws on the books in Arab states which discriminate against non-Muslims. For starters why not take a look at the various Arab constitutions which make it mandatory that the head of state be a Muslim. In your opinion would that be discrimination?


By the way, the proposed Palestinian constitution has the following articles:


"ARTICLE 4


  1. Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect and sanctity of all other heavenly religions shall be maintained.
  2. The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be the main source of legislation."


and 


"ARTICLE 35


Before assuming the office, the President shall take the following oath before the Legislative Council, and in the presence of the Speaker of the Palestinian National Council, the Chief of Supreme Court “ I swear to Allah Almighty to be faithful to the Homeland and to its sacred places, and to the people and its national heritage, and to respect the Constitutional system and the law, and to safeguard the interests of the Palestinian people completely, as Allah is my witness “."


Sherri, 


Do you think that there is some element of legal discrimination in the proposed Palestinian constitution?


Habesor 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2011 - 7:14AM #355
Ricky
Posts: 1,064

''Israel's discrimination against nonJews, including Christians and human  rights groups  speaking against the Occupation,  inside Israel and in  the OPT is comon knowledge, regularly reported by all of the human  rights groups. The US State Department even documents it in yearly  reports.''


Insideof Israel most of those who acknowledge and report these truths are Jews as shown in my many posts on the subject.


 

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Aug 31, 2011 - 12:19PM
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2011 - 7:17AM #356
Ricky
Posts: 1,064

''boycotts are not speech but are acts that are aimed at causing economic harm''


Boycotts were used by the civil rights movement in the USA to bring about needed changes which ended overt racism in the USA.  I suppose that does not meet with your approval.

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2011 - 8:24AM #357
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,479

Boycotts were used to fight Apartheid in South Africa, supported by Christians there. And I have read by Israelis words expressing support of the Boycott are made illegal by the recent fascist legislation passed by Israel, thus this is a law attacking freedom of speech, not just acts. Kairos Palestine is a document prepared by Palestinian Christians, who also support the Boycott. Boycotts are methods of nonviolent resistance that have been embraced by Christians in conflicts throughout the world, and in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, by Christians in the Middle East and throughout the world. I just learned of an item sold locally I will now boycott.  That item is Sabra hummus. It is made by a company in the US who sends care packages to Israeli soldiers enforcing the unjust and Occupation, founded by Israelis who benefit from and support the Occupation and its slaughter of innocent civilians and attacks against human rights of Palestinians. I have the right to boycott items made and produced by organizations that benefit from and support the illegal and unjust Israeli Occupation of Palestine. And I also affirm my 100% support for the Boycott Movement by all who are engaging in it in Palestine and all over our world.  Sherri

Moderated by rangerken on Aug 29, 2011 - 12:28PM
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2011 - 10:06AM #358
habesor
Posts: 4,856

Sherri,


You wrote:


"Boycotts were used to fight Apartheid in South Africa, supported by Christians there."


Mostly true.


"And I have read by Israelis words expressing support of the Boycott are made illegal by the recent fascist legislation passed by Israel, thus this is a law attacking freedom of speech, not just acts."


False. The legislation does not make boycotts or expressing support for boycotts a criminal offense. You might want to read the law before you make such incorrect statements.


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2 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2011 - 12:45PM #359
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,479
Habesor, Human Rights Watch has this to say about the AntiBoycott legislation, "The Israeli Parliament has violated the right to freedom of expression by approving a law that penalizes individuals and organizations that call for boycotting Israeli settlements in the West Bank." The Bill for Prevention of Damage to the State of Israel Through Boycott 2011 threatens lawsuits and damages and could strip human rights and civil society groups of their tax exempt status, forcing them to shut down. That would violate their right to freedom of expression and association." www.hrw.org/news/2011/07/13/israel-anti-... This legislation penalizes individuals who simply call for boycotting activities, an attack on free speech, an attack on nonviolent methods of opposing injustice, an attack on Christians supporting such movements. Sherri
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2011 - 1:40PM #360
habesor
Posts: 4,856

So Sherri,


I suppose this shows that Human Rights Watch has not read the law either.


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