Post Reply
Page 3 of 6  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next
Switch to Forum Live View WHITHER GOEST GERMANY
4 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 12:01PM #21
Paravani
Posts: 798

Mar 24, 2011 -- 11:43AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Let me just note that I find it suspicious when you accuse the same people of being snobbish and class-conscious on the one hand, yet pushy and rude on the other. In my view, the two just don't go together. What you describe sounds like lack of manners, plain and simple.




Yup, I think that's the point I was making, exactly.  In this country (the US), behaving as if you think you're better than everyone else is considered very bad manners.


Hmm... Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that's considered bad manners in every country.


Mar 24, 2011 -- 11:43AM, CharikIeia wrote:


I'd still like to hear a second opinion, although you seem to put high hurdles by requiring knowledge of the language. Maybe Ken could jump in, or Mark? Anyone ever stationed in Germany during his/her military years?




I'm not sure that the experience of people living in Germany would be similar.  The bad manners I've witnessed were displayed when the Germans didn't think that anyone who really "counted" -- that is, other Germans -- could see or hear their rudeness.


You know, Americans are often accused of rudeness when visiting other countries, too.  I'm always mortified when someone tells me that, and I'm quick to apologize on behalf of my countrymen. 


I try to make sure that my own behavior is as polite as possible when I'm in other countries, and that I learn enough of the language and standards of courtesy to avoid being rude to anyone.  Certainly, there are times when I forget myself (in America, it isn't necessary to greet shopkeepers when entering a store), but I do my best, and I'm quick to apologize if I become aware that I or my companion have accidentally offended someone.


It's interesting how differently people handle occasions of rudeness, isn't it?


Love,


-- Claudia

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 2:19PM #22
Erey
Posts: 19,423

Claudia,


 


I think you are probably under the influence of perception becoming reality.  It is a situation most of ourselves land in from time to time. 


What you need to know is that all cultures have a dark side.  YOu mentioned the dark side to German culture that does exist but each culture has their own dark side.  Even the sunny Italians or the blissfull Thai people - all cultures have a abusive, ruthless, cruel side to them.  And all cultures have the potential (which is different from actively having) a optimistic, generous, and virtous side.


Basically it is a matter of what you focus on.  Looking at more recent Afghan culture even before the US lead invasion - I am not seeing much of anything lovely.  But that does not mean at one time in the past and again in the future we can see the more postive side of Afghan culture.  The Russians in not so distant years went through a overwhelming darker time and now are improved. 


That nursery rhyme could be from any culture.  All cultures have in their history horrific nursery rhymes. 


What I see in you is a person who is basically saying " You think you know German culture as the affable hard-working and hard drinking jolly lot, well let me shed some light on your ignorance.  The germans are cruel, pushy and mean spirited"   And the thing is Claudia, you are right  they are all those things.  But they are also fun-loving, focused, and more than a bit idealistic.  It depends on what you focus on. 


With you a typical German being the least bit pushy is going to reinforce your stereotype, whereas a mid westerner being pushy might not even register. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 3:19PM #23
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Hi Claudia!


Mar 24, 2011 -- 12:01PM, Paravani wrote:


I'm not sure that the experience of people living in Germany would be similar. 



I actually didn't mean to suggest that.


But many of those who were stationed in Germany have learnt to understand (or even speak) German, so they would be able to make / confirm the experiences you spoke about.

tl;dr
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 5:04AM #24
Paravani
Posts: 798

Mar 24, 2011 -- 10:42AM, CharikIeia wrote:

I don't think it is my task here to start your healing process, but I do understand how a woman brought up by avowed Nazi admirers would convey to her daughter a weirdly distorted picture of what German culture is.



Hi, Charikleia,


The above sentences offended me when I first read them, but I was reluctant to address them at the time because to do so would have derailed the discussion.  I'm used to seeing violations of the ROC posted by Bnetters who don't realize that they're violations, and I'm not so thin-skinned that I'm going to bother our already-overburdened volunteer staff with constant complaints.


However, having since learned through a random-walk discovery that you are a host on another forum here, I've decided to hold you to a higher standard of behavior than I would expect of the average Bnet poster.  I'd therefore like to address what I believe are violations of the ROC.


Mar 24, 2011 -- 10:42AM, CharikIeia wrote:

I don't think it is my task here  to start your healing process ...



This sentence qualifies as an ad hominem attack, by implying that I am not completely sane or emotionally balanced.  It is attacking the poster rather than her ideas.


(FWIW, I believe that my healing process involved recognizing that I was not abused because I am a bad person nor because my mother is a bad person, but because my mother was raised in a culture in which good mothers beat and verbally abuse good children.)


Mar 24, 2011 -- 10:42AM, CharikIeia wrote:

I do understand how a woman brought  up by avowed Nazi admirers would convey to her daughter a weirdly  distorted picture of what German culture is.



I'm not sure if this was due to simple carelessness in reading my post, or whether you actually intended to imply that I was raised to be a Nazi, but I'm deeply offended by this.  Also, because I have many Jewish friends and family members (my brother converted -- he and his ex-wife and all my nephews are Jewish), it is important to me to set the record straight:


As I stated in my post, my grandparents moved back to Germany because they believed that Hitler was bringing prosperity to the country.  They did not continue to admire him, and when my grandfather got drafted into the German army, he swiftly surrendered himself up to the Allied forces and spent the remainder of the war as a prisoner.  His captors liked him well enough that they allowed him conjugal visits, and my youngest uncle was conceived in a POW camp.


My mother was not and never has been a Nazi sympathizer.  When I was growing up, her favorite boss for many years was Jewish.  They remained friends long after he retired, and I don't recall EVER hearing discriminatory comments in our home about anyone due to race, religion, creed, color, or gender.  (I wish I could add "or sexual orientation", as my youngest brother grew up gay.) 


For the record, virtually all of the derogatory terms and verbal abuse heard in our home were directed at children.


I would very much appreciate it if you would edit your post #16 to remove your insulting comments.


Thanks very much.


Love,


-- Claudia


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 6:08AM #25
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Mar 25, 2011 -- 5:04AM, Paravani wrote:


I would very much appreciate it if you would edit your post #16 to remove your insulting comments.



Done, and I hope you now feel better with the text. There was no personal insult intended. I did not realise that your over-reaction to German culture already was the result of healing process. I think you do Germans injustice nonetheless when you blame their culture wholsale for what one woman did in your life.

tl;dr
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 8:04AM #26
Paravani
Posts: 798

Hi, Charikleia,


Please also remove the sentence in which you call my mother a "Nazi admirer".


Thanks,


-- Claudia

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 8:33AM #27
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Mar 25, 2011 -- 8:04AM, Paravani wrote:


Please also remove the sentence in which you call my mother a "Nazi admirer".



There is no such sentence, I didn't ever call her a Nazi admirer. But I did call her parents (i.e., your grandparents) avowed Nazi admirers, based on your own words, I quote:


Mar 24, 2011 -- 9:11AM, Paravani wrote:


... her parents went  back to Germany because they'd heard such great things about that leader  who was whipping the country back into shape... 



You must have misunderstood what I wrote. Maybe because my command of the English language is not so good.

tl;dr
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 8:38AM #28
Paravani
Posts: 798

Mar 25, 2011 -- 8:33AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Mar 25, 2011 -- 8:04AM, Paravani wrote:


Please also remove the sentence in which you call my mother a "Nazi admirer".



There is no such sentence, I didn't ever call her a Nazi admirer.


I called her parents (i.e., your grandparents) Nazi admirers, based on your own words, I quote:


Mar 24, 2011 -- 9:11AM, Paravani wrote:


... her parents went  back to Germany because they'd heard such great things about that leader  who was whipping the country back into shape... 



You must have misunderstood what I wrote. Maybe because my command of the English language is not so good.




Okay, my mistake -- you called my grandparents "Nazi admirers".  That's much better. /sarcasm


I don't expect you to understand, but just seeing the word "Nazi" is enough to p*ss off most Americans.


But probably you think it's cool to use that word?


-- Claudia

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 8:42AM #29
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Mar 25, 2011 -- 8:38AM, Paravani wrote:


Okay, my mistake -- you called my grandparents "Nazi admirers".  That's much better. /sarcasm



Actually, it is you who identified them as such, right?



I don't expect you to understand, but just seeing the word "Nazi" is enough to p*ss off most Americans.



Completely irrational, this over-reaction. Those were not demons from outer space or inner hell, but quite unspectacular human beings. They can be discussed like anything else on our planet.


In fact, to demonise them beyond recognition paves the way for not paying attention to similar developments in our societies today.

tl;dr
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 8:47AM #30
Paravani
Posts: 798

Mar 25, 2011 -- 8:42AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Mar 25, 2011 -- 8:38AM, Paravani wrote:


Okay, my mistake -- you called my grandparents "Nazi admirers".  That's much better. /sarcasm



Actually, it is you who identified them as such, right?




No, I didn't identify them as such, and you know it.  In fact, I pointed out that my grandfather refused to fight the Allies and surrendered to them as soon as he could.


But thank you for exemplifying German sensitivity, understanding, and diplomacy.  You've done an admirable job of proving my point for me.


-- Claudia

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 3 of 6  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook