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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 9:16AM #1
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

What dominates the national news in Germany for the last days is - next to the revolutions in Arab countries - the plagiarism of his PhD dissertation by Minister of Defence Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg.


Guttenberg Affair Reveals 'Moral Bankruptcy' in German Politics


www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1...


It's a topic that leads one to be ashamed of German nationality. To think that Germans tended to portray themselves as "a country of poets and thinkers" - well, shelve that to all the other obsolete trash of national pride...

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 12:50PM #2
Erey
Posts: 17,375

I guess you have to be German to get the full gist of the scandal.


I can only speak for myself but I don't think people around me always thought of Germans as poets and thinkers.  I can't think of any German poetry.  But we do think of Germans as exacting craftsmen and full of self discipline.  Nazi is synonymous with demanding and disciplined.  But also for the Germans it is not all about work, you guys are famous for drinking beer and being jolly while you do that. 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 1:51PM #3
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,050

Feb 28, 2011 -- 9:16AM, CharikIeia wrote:


What dominates the national news in Germany for the last days is - next to the revolutions in Arab countries - the plagiarism of his PhD dissertation by Minister of Defence Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg.


Guttenberg Affair Reveals 'Moral Bankruptcy' in German Politics


www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1...


It's a topic that leads one to be ashamed of German nationality. To think that Germans tended to portray themselves as "a country of poets and thinkers" - well, shelve that to all the other obsolete trash of national pride...





It's something of interest, too, on French radio.  (One does not hear the Idiot, Rush, or the Cipher, Ms Palin, on French radio.)   I understand that the MoD withdrew his Ph.D. until the plagiarism charge could be cleared; or, as it seems, just pressed to make it obvious that he did plagiarise.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 2:14PM #4
MMarcoe
Posts: 14,733

Feb 28, 2011 -- 12:50PM, Erey wrote:


I guess you have to be German to get the full gist of the scandal.


I can only speak for myself but I don't think people around me always thought of Germans as poets and thinkers.  I can't think of any German poetry.  But we do think of Germans as exacting craftsmen and full of self discipline.  Nazi is synonymous with demanding and disciplined.  But also for the Germans it is not all about work, you guys are famous for drinking beer and being jolly while you do that. 





So we've never heard of Goethe and Schopenhauer?

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 2:35PM #5
Erey
Posts: 17,375

Feb 28, 2011 -- 2:14PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Feb 28, 2011 -- 12:50PM, Erey wrote:


I guess you have to be German to get the full gist of the scandal.


I can only speak for myself but I don't think people around me always thought of Germans as poets and thinkers.  I can't think of any German poetry.  But we do think of Germans as exacting craftsmen and full of self discipline.  Nazi is synonymous with demanding and disciplined.  But also for the Germans it is not all about work, you guys are famous for drinking beer and being jolly while you do that. 





So we've never heard of Goethe and Schopenhauer?





Goethe yes but I could not tell you any of his work.  The other guy no

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 3:48PM #6
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,206

Guttenberg Affair Reveals 'Moral Bankruptcy' in German Politics 


Disagree.  I believe all that has been show is that an individual, Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, is morally bankrupt.  So he cheated on his doctorate.  He certainly wasn't the first, and he most assuredly won't be the last.


 

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 4:41PM #7
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

Feb 28, 2011 -- 3:48PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Guttenberg Affair Reveals 'Moral Bankruptcy' in German Politics 


Disagree.  I believe all that has been show is that an individual, Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, is morally bankrupt.  So he cheated on his doctorate.  He certainly wasn't the first, and he most assuredly won't be the last.



Fair enouigh. But it reflects back on chancellor Merkel, who insists on keeping him in office as Minister of Defence. As long as he stays in office, the official government line is that while cheating is a character trait tied to the person of the baron (as you say), one can separate between the baron-as-minister and the baron-as-jurist.


The most creepy aspect in this is that Guttenberg himself still seems not to realise what he did. He demonstrably copied and pasted up to 70% of his PhD thesis, unattributed and undocumented theft of others' intellectual property - and claims not to have noticed it and not to have done it on purpose - LOL! This type of reality loss seems to be an extra qualification for staying in government...

tl;dr
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 4:46PM #8
Erey
Posts: 17,375

Feb 28, 2011 -- 4:41PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Feb 28, 2011 -- 3:48PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Guttenberg Affair Reveals 'Moral Bankruptcy' in German Politics 


Disagree.  I believe all that has been show is that an individual, Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, is morally bankrupt.  So he cheated on his doctorate.  He certainly wasn't the first, and he most assuredly won't be the last.



Fair enouigh. But it reflects back on chancellor Merkel, who insists on keeping him in office as Minister of Defence. As long as he stays in office, the official government line is that while cheating is a character trait tied to the person of the baron (as you say), one can separate between the baron-as-minister and the baron-as-jurist.


The most creepy aspect in this is that Guttenberg himself still seems not to realise what he did. He demonstrably copied and pasted up to 70% of his PhD thesis, unattributed and undocumented theft of others' intellectual property - and claims not to have noticed it and not to have done it on purpose - LOL! This type of reality loss seems to be an extra qualification for staying in government...




Well I do see your point that it is a scandal.  What you describe is like lying on a resume.  Merkel hired a Phd but he is not a Phd.  I would question allowing him to keep his position also. 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2011 - 7:51AM #9
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

Well... he finally stepped down.


www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/world/europe/...


He's a pleasant and popular politician nonetheless, and I think a few years outside government will more help than hinder his political future.


As they twitter all over Germany: #guttbye

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2011 - 6:11PM #10
solfeggio
Posts: 8,539

I'm proud of my German heritage, and I've always thought of Germany as a land of not only great writers like Goethe, Rilke, Kafka, Hesse, and Brecht, to name just a few, but also some of the greatest composers the world has ever known.


And that would include Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Mendelssohn, Weber, and Wagner.  When I'm listening to the Berliner Philharmoniker playing Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, or Brahms' Fourth, I am supremely grateful all over again for this beautiful music.


The Nazi era does not define Deutschland.

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