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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:35PM #51
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:20PM, Cesmom wrote:

It should be an issue when we are talking about a dangerous criminal who society needs to be protected from.



When talking about taking a human life; money should never be an issue. Society will be protected just fine with a life sentence. There are about 150,000 people in prison with a life sentence. Some get parole hearings, some don't. Don't worry, just because someone gets a parole hearing doesn't mean they get a release date. I know of a case where the guy is in on a "7 to Life" sentence. He's been in since the mid 1970's. He is now over 70 years old and the parole board told him to come back in two years and is to have learned a trade such as welding or HVAC repair in the mean time. In California the parole board is a farce and has not given a release date for more than a couple of guys in on life with the possibility of parole. Most of those have been forced upon the board by the federal courts. Those with life without possibility of parole do not get such hearings. In California sentences other than life with the possibility of parole do not go before parole boards. Some sex offenders do go before a medical board, another farce, that can give them a date if they feel the person is no longer a danger. Of course, just like the parole boards, it's all political. Anyone thinking about giving anyone a date will be quickly replaced since these boards are by appointment and political in nature.


Probably more than you wanted to know.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:41PM #52
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,043

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:35PM, mountain_man wrote:


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:20PM, Cesmom wrote:

It should be an issue when we are talking about a dangerous criminal who society needs to be protected from.



Some sex offenders do go before a medical board, another farce, that can give them a date if they feel the person is no longer a danger. Of course, just like the parole boards, it's all political. Anyone thinking about giving anyone a date will be quickly replaced since these boards are by appointment and political in nature.


Probably more than you wanted to know.




I'm one who doesn't believe that sex offenders should ever get parole, especially those whose offenses involved children.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:44PM #53
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:29PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

General rule: "The taking of a life of anyone is immoral"


Exceptions: JUSTIFIABLE HOMOCIDES + WAR + etc/p


Self defense and defense of family


accidents


authorized by law to enforce protection of society



War is not an excuse, nor is the protection of society bit. Self defense, or in defense of others, is always appropriate when done with reason. Murdering someone to protect things is never appropriate.


Capital Punishment and religion.



My problem with even considering what a religion says is that this country is not run according to the dictates of any religion. What a religion says is, and must be according to law, irrelevant. This country has "rule of law," not rule of religion. As has been said many times; keep your religion out of our laws and we'll keep the laws out of your religion.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:46PM #54
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:19PM, mountain_man wrote:


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:03PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:

No, it isn't. 



Capital punishment most certainly murder and it devalues all human life.



 


Is there anyway we can do this without it de-volving to a "no it isn't, yes it is" argument? 


 


Murder:


 

  • kill intentionally and with premeditation; "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"
  • mangle: alter so as to make unrecognizable; "The tourists murdered the French language"
  • unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

You're operating under the first definitionk, I'm operating under the third. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:19PM, mountain_man wrote:


There is no humane way to something that is basicaly inhumane. Murdering someone nicely is still murder.



 


See above. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:19PM, mountain_man wrote:


Uh... no. They spend years appealing their case because they do not want to die.



 


Except it is not their decision how long they stay on death row.  It is not because they don't want to die that they are allowed to live for years. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:19PM, mountain_man wrote:


We do, maybe not on the lawn but many want to televise executions and otherwise make a big show about the state murdering one of it's citizens.



I'm sure that you can find people that think it is a good idea to build apartment complexes on the sun, and long as you do it at night.  That doesn't mean it is very smart. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:19PM, mountain_man wrote:


The death penalty is hate, anger, and revenge since it serves no useful purpose except to soothe the hate and anger of those seeking revenge.



It is societies way of saying that whatever the person did, it was bad enough that they are not going to put up with the person who did it.  It, not about hate, anger, or revenge.  If it was, they'd let those seeking revenge carry out the sentence, or at least give them the choice two. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:19PM, mountain_man wrote:


The death penalty does not lower the murder rate



 


Nor is it intended to.  The deterrent line of logic is used by opponents of the death penalty.  Claiming that the death penalty lowers the murder rate would be like claiming that your bicycle should fly. 


 


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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:46PM #55
Cesmom
Posts: 4,594

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:35PM, mountain_man wrote:


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:20PM, Cesmom wrote:

It should be an issue when we are talking about a dangerous criminal who society needs to be protected from.



When talking about taking a human life; money should never be an issue. Society will be protected just fine with a life sentence. There are about 150,000 people in prison with a life sentence. Some get parole hearings, some don't. Don't worry, just because someone gets a parole hearing doesn't mean they get a release date. I know of a case where the guy is in on a "7 to Life" sentence. He's been in since the mid 1970's. He is now over 70 years old and the parole board told him to come back in two years and is to have learned a trade such as welding or HVAC repair in the mean time. In California the parole board is a farce and has not given a release date for more than a couple of guys in on life with the possibility of parole. Most of those have been forced upon the board by the federal courts. Those with life without possibility of parole do not get such hearings. In California sentences other than life with the possibility of parole do not go before parole boards. Some sex offenders do go before a medical board, another farce, that can give them a date if they feel the person is no longer a danger. Of course, just like the parole boards, it's all political. Anyone thinking about giving anyone a date will be quickly replaced since these boards are by appointment and political in nature.


Probably more than you wanted to know.





No, that's interesting information.  I'm not heartless.  I do value human life.  I simply can't hold the same value for a vicious murderer as I do for everyone else.


I was watching 48 Hours or 20/20 or one of those shows the other night.  It was about a guy who had abducted, raped and killed a 14 year old girl, as well as at least one other woman.  They actually interviewed the guy.  He came right out and said that if they let him out, he would kill someone else.  They've tried a whole list of anti-psychotic meds on this guy, and nothing has made him less violent.  I don't see his life as valuable..

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:51PM #56
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Capital punishment does not "devalue human life." Some people, through their own actions devalue their own lives. To the point where, in cases like this, it's really no less moral -- or practical -- than simply putting down a mad dog.

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:55PM #57
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:46PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:

Is there anyway we can do this without it de-volving to a "no it isn't, yes it is" argument?



Yes, don't start doing it.


Murder:....kill intentionally and with premeditation;


You're operating under the first definitionk, I'm operating under the third.



I'm going by what fits. The state is killing someone with intent and premeditation.


See above.



I thought you didn't want that kind of "yes it is - no it isn't" kind of argument?


Except it is not their decision how long they stay on death row.  It is not because they don't want to die that they are allowed to live for years.



I did not say anthing about being "allowed" to live on death row. They don't want to die which is why they have to go to court with long and emotionally difficult for the family and friends of the victim and lengthy appeals after that.


I'm sure that you can find people that think it is a good idea to build apartment complexes on the sun....



Come on. I can't fall for inane arguments like that.


It is societies way of saying that whatever the person did, it was bad enough that they are not going to put up with the person who did it.  It, not about hate, anger, or revenge.  If it was, they'd let those seeking revenge carry out the sentence, or at least give them the choice two.



As I have already pointed out several times, with explanations, the DP is only for revenge and other emotional issues.


Nor is it intended to.  The deterrent line of logic is used by opponents of the death penalty.  Claiming that the death penalty lowers the murder rate would be like claiming that your bicycle should fly.




Sorry, it is a very common argument for those that like to see the state murder people that it is a deterrent.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 3:58PM #58
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:46PM, Cesmom wrote:

No, that's interesting information.  I'm not heartless.  I do value human life.  I simply can't hold the same value for a vicious murderer as I do for everyone else.



I can, which is why I'm a Humanist.


I was watching 48 Hours or 20/20 or one of those shows the other night.  It was about a guy who had abducted, raped and killed a 14 year old girl, as well as at least one other woman.  They actually interviewed the guy.  He came right out and said that if they let him out, he would kill someone else.  They've tried a whole list of anti-psychotic meds on this guy, and nothing has made him less violent.  I don't see his life as valuable..



All human life has the save value. Just because you don't like someone does not give you, or society, the right to devalue their life. The guy above has proven that he should not be allowed out in society, but to take his life just lowers you to his level.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 4:01PM #59
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:51PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Capital punishment does not "devalue human life."



It most certainly does. You're placing an extrinsic value on human life. When doing that it's easy to take away the value of life in general.


Some people, through their own actions devalue their own lives.



No, they do not. They value their lives as much as you or I value our lives.


To the point where, in cases like this, it's really no less moral -- or practical -- than simply putting down a mad dog.



Since they are not a dog the death peanalty is nothing more than revenge.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 4:10PM #60
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:55PM, mountain_man wrote:


Yes, don't start doing it.



 


It takes two. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:55PM, mountain_man wrote:


I'm going by what fits. The state is killing someone with intent and premeditation.



 


Yes, but it is lawful.  You're defining the state as someone operating outside of the law. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:55PM, mountain_man wrote:


I did not say anthing about being "allowed" to live on death row. They don't want to die which is why they have to go to court with long and emotionally difficult for the family and friends of the victim and lengthy appeals after that.



 


I said: 

That's why they spend years if not decades on death row exhausting ever possible appeal before the sentance is carried out.



 


To which you replied: 

Uh... no. They spend years appealing their case because they do not want to die.



 


Now, it is possible that you thought I was stating an action of the criminal, but I was talking about the action of the state.  The state allows them to live for years if not decades exhausting ever possible appeal before the sentance is carried out.  It is not up to the convicted criminal.  If the state was not interested in the protests of the criminal, they'd just carry out the sentence.  If it was about anger, hatred, or vengence, they'd just carry out the sentence.  Do you really think that if this was about revenge, they'd listen to the arguments of the convicted? 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:55PM, mountain_man wrote:


Come on. I can't fall for inane arguments like that.



 


At one point you fell for the inane arguments that you are spouting, I was just playing the odds. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:55PM, mountain_man wrote:


As I have already pointed out several times, with explanations, the DP is only for revenge and other emotional issues.



 


No, you've just stated it.  Which as we all know, doesn't make it true. 


Nov 9, 2010 -- 3:55PM, mountain_man wrote:


Sorry, it is a very common argument for those that like to see the state murder people that it is a deterrent.




 


Well, if you're going to tell me what my side of the arguement is, you can just bicker with yourself. 


 


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