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Switch to Forum Live View Israeli Cabinet passes loyalty bill
3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 1:38PM #111
teilhard
Posts: 48,396

Actually, it's an ISRAELI Internal Matter that doesn't concern ME, Gentile Christian NON-Israeli that I am ...


Add THAT fact into The Observed FACT that The State of Israel is THE Shining Beacon of Liberal Democracy and Human Rights in a SEA of Oppression and Apartheid ...


Oct 27, 2010 -- 1:20PM, Amin21 wrote:

I am not trying to change Israel's law That doesn't mean I don't have the right to make a judgement call when I see bigotry... It seems to me all the answers I am getting are simply reconfirming my opinion that this law is rooted in bigotry. The answer is that being Jewish is 1 part theology... and 1 part a belief in a bloodline... It is still a belief. It is still a religion in the oath... even if in part that religion is solely related to ones bloodline. It is still wrong.




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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 1:46PM #112
Amin21
Posts: 4,643
I am comparing Israel to the west... as they ask to be.

not the region.

and I do have a right to talk about any country and their policies as I see fit...  morality is absolute.

That it is Israel is only means that I don't have the right to vote on the issue.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 1:46PM #113
Amin21
Posts: 4,643
I do give you an A+ for being consistent, though.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 2:05PM #114
browbeaten
Posts: 2,804

Oct 27, 2010 -- 1:20PM, Amin21 wrote:

I am not trying to change Israel's law  That doesn't mean I don't have the right to make a judgement call when I see bigotry...  It seems to me all the answers I am getting are simply reconfirming my opinion that this law is rooted in bigotry.  The answer is that being Jewish is 1 part theology... and 1 part a belief in a bloodline...  It is still a belief.  It is still a religion in the oath... even if in part that religion is solely related to ones bloodline.  It is still wrong.



And what, precisely, makes it wrong?


.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 2:09PM #115
teilhard
Posts: 48,396

Yes ... Such a highly-principled Stance IS understandable for me ... living and moving and having MY being in VERY Progressive-Liberal-Democratic ( and PEACEFUL and SAFE ... !!! ) Minnesota ...


But ... IF I and my Children and Grand-Children and Friends and Relatives and Neighbors in Minnesota were subjected to virtually CONSTANT Hostility and Threat  and violent murderous ATTACKS coming across the Borders of Canada and Wisconsin and North Dakota and South Dakota ...


It is ... SO ... E-A-S-Y ... and ... S-A-F-E ... to criticise The Israelis ... from a DISTANCE ...


Oct 27, 2010 -- 1:46PM, Amin21 wrote:

I am comparing Israel to the west... as they ask to be. not the region. and I do have a right to talk about any country and their policies as I see fit... morality is absolute. That it is Israel is only means that I don't have the right to vote on the issue.




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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 3:15PM #116
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,513

MYTH


Israel cannot be both a democratic state and a Jewish state.”


FACT

The uproar over Israel’s proposed loyalty oath for new  immigrants has sparked renewed debate over whether Israel’s insistence on being  a “Jewish state” violates the principles of  western democracy.  Critics claim that by identifying the country  with  Jewish symbols, such as the Star of David or menorah, having its national  anthem relate to the Jewish yearning for a “return to Zion” and granting Jews  automatic citizenship through the Law of Return, Israel is verging on  theocratic ideals and rudely affronts its non-Jewish citizens.  Israel is not a theocracy, however; it is  governed by the rule of law as drafted by a democratically elected parliament and enforced by a highly praised judicial system

Israeli law  adheres to many  Jewish religious customs and is largely informed  by Jewish values, but this structure makes it no different than other   democracies that shape themselves around Christian or Islamic  traditions.  The Greek constitution outlines the country  as an Eastern Orthodox state; Christian crosses don the flags of Switzerland, Sweden and Finland; the monarchs of the UK, Norway and Denmark head their  respective national churches. 413  In addition, Ireland has a law allowing immigrants of  “Irish descent or Irish associations” to be exempt from ordinary naturalization  rules while Bulgaria, Croatia, Germany and a number of other democratic states also have precedents strikingly similar to Israel's Law of Return.  No one, though, claims that these  countries cannot be democratic while  also maintaining strong connections with their national heritage and  religious core.

Israel is the prototypical “ethnic democracy”,  wherein Jews  account for the desired majority, but its democratic  foundation grants all faiths freedom of worship,  protects the rights of  minorities and allows non-Jews the right to run for government  offices  and fully participate in political processes.414 Israeli law also grants  freedom of the press and freedom to assemble for all  citizens, thrives off of open political  debate and welcomes  immigrants  without racial discrimination. In fact, Israel is the  largest, per-capita immigrant-absorbing nation in the world  with citizens hailing from more than 100 different countries and  representing more than six distinct ethnic and religious groups.415

At its core, democracy is “rule of the people, by the  people, for the  people”, and it is therefore understandable that democracy  would look  slightly different as the shared history, culture and traditions of   people differ from one country to the next.   Just as Arabs, Turks or  Japanese people, Jews have the right to  self-determination in their own  sovereign state.  Israel is that sovereign homeland of the  Jewish people and it is also  democratic, tenets that are not inherently oxymoronic or contradictory.


 taken from


www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myt...

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 3:27PM #117
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,513

Amin


It is no more bigoted for Israel to insist that prospective citizens pledge allegiance to the State of Israel than it is for the U.S. to do the same. You are way off base here.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 4:50PM #118
teilhard
Posts: 48,396

And ... lest we forget ... "Liberal Democracy" is NOT a "Mutual Suicide Pact" ...

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2010 - 2:11AM #119
habesor
Posts: 5,440

Amin, you wrote:


"There are many in Israel who also disagree with this change...


It is not like I am crazy or something..." 


You are correct on both counts. There are many in Israel who disagree (on just about any topic but also on this one) and you are not crazy.


Israel is a democracy and that's why people disagree on this topic as well. The disagreement includes most (but not all) the Arab members of the Israeli parliament, many ultra-orthodox Jewish Israelis, some left-liberal Israelis and others. I think that most Israelis do not disagree with the latest form of the oath of allegiance and that is why it will probably be approved by the parliament. 


I think that the problem most honest people have with the oath (dishonest ones are opposed because they oppose everything about Israel) is that they see a religious element and a religious test of sorts in the oath. The only response that I have is that the majority of Israelis, including many who oppose the oath, do not view Jewish as being a member of a religion but Jewish as being a member of a nation. This is one of the core principles of Zionism and why it is the case that some Zionists, such as Herzl for instance, were opposed to any Jewish religious interference in the running of the Jewish state. It is also for that reason that no one before or after the oath comes into use, has to pass a test of religious belief before becoming a citizen. To put it as plainly as I can, though one must be a member of the Jewish nation to qualify for admission under the Law of Return, one does not have to show any evidence of belief in the Jewish faith.  


Now one may disagree with the definition of Jewish as a form of nationalism, there are a good many Jews who do disagree, but that doesn't deny the right of the Jews of Israel, or any other Jews for that matter, to define themselves as a nation rather than or in addition to as a religion. At least that's my opinion.


Habesor  


 

Habesor
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