Post Reply
Page 5 of 37  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 37 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Rachel Corrie Trial Continues in Israel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2010 - 8:21PM #41
LeahOne
Posts: 14,490

 


Ksai, I'm sorry - but you telling me 'there's such and such a law' is NOT the same as you linking to some Israeli government site where the law itself is shown.  Now if you want to feel insulted or disrespected by that, I'll try to understand.  But I've already informed you that I would require a 'first-hand source'. 


 We've seen within the US where people have claimed that this law or that would have deleterious consequences - and there was nothing in the language which suggested that. 


Maybe it's a 'Jewish' thing - but I prefer to read items in the original whenever possible : ))


As to the 2 laws you refer to:  the 'no intermarriage law' is offensive to me as an American and I wouldn't consider it proper.  BUT - it doesn't discriminate against non-Jews any more or less than it does Jews. It's just a bad and a stupid law (so tell me whereever you live has no bador stupid laws, right?)


As to the second 'law' - I will wait to see the actual language.  I happen to be in favor of giving more benefits to citizens who are willing to serve the country (NOT limited to the military) - the US, I mean.


This isn't about YOU, Ksai.  It's about having the original source available to examine, that's ALL.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2010 - 10:53PM #42
Roodog
Posts: 9,748

PLease, when a law is referred to, cite the law exactly and the source from which you are quoting from. This way we can look the law up and read it in its context. Thanks.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2010 - 12:31AM #43
habesor
Posts: 4,859

Kindredsai, you wrote:


"The Palestinians of the former Western mandate have been thrown away from Arab lands due to the Arab lands maintaining their identity not forgeting what Israel caused by it's creation.


Now I don't justify their expulsion whatsoever whether from Israel or other Arab nations, however to turn around and say that one is greater than the other is not going to lead to progression."


Kindredsai, that's a great way to ignore the treatment that the Palestinians received at the hands of their Arab brothers. The only thing that you haven't done, in the above, is to blame Arab oppression of Palestinians on the Israelis. But that sort of argument is not exactly unheard of either. My point, which you didn't address, was why the Arabs get so outraged by actions of the Israelis towards the Palestinians (or any other Israeli actions) when their own actions towards the Palestinians and towards each other are worse than anything Israel has done.


"Israel needs to stop blaming the Arab collective for the situation,,,,"


And perhaps the Arabs should stop blaming Israel, the USA, neo-colonialism and the whole rest of mankind rather than admitting that at least some of the blame for their situation rests with the Arabs themselves.


"...Palestinians have an identity and nationalism that needs to be addressed by Israel."


That is quite true and it seems that Israel, including the Israeli right, recognizes a Palestinian Arab identity and  nationalism. Given Abbas' refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, it seems that the Palestinians have a recognition problem preventing a peaceful solution to this conflict.


Kindredsai, I have written this before; Israel doesn't need Arab or Palestinian recognition of the Jewish nationalist nature of the State of Israel. The Arabs need it. Otherwise they will never be able to make peace.


Habesor


 

Habesor
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2010 - 1:04AM #44
habesor
Posts: 4,859

Kindredsai,


There is no law in Israel making marriages between Jews and non-Jews illegal as there were miscegenation laws in 17 USA States making marriage between the races illegal, until those laws were struck down by the USA Supreme Court in 1967.(see Loving vs. The State of Virginia)


In Israel there is no civil marriage. All marriages are conducted by the religious functionaries including Jewish, Christian and Muslim clergy among others. If one of these clergy agrees to perform a mixed marriage, it is legal. If mixed couple goes abroad (usually to Cyprus) and marry there, that marriage is legal in Israel. If the mixed couple through a lawyer arranges a recognized marriage abroad without actually going there, that marriage is recognized as legal in Israel.


It would be convenient if there was civil marriage in Israel but there isn't and people here manage to marry across religious lines without it and most important, those marriages are recognized as legal in Israel. There is no law forbidding mixed marriages here.


As for being drafted in the IDF; most countries, including the USA, give special benefits to civilians who have formerly served in the armed forces. In this, Israel is no different than any other state. In Israel Jews and Druze are drafted into the IDF; the latter at the insistence of their own community leaders. The Arab community leaders insisted that their people not be drafted into the IDF. Despite that, many Christian and Muslim Arabs serve in the IDF and get all the benefits that their Jewish and Druze ex-service people get. There are possibilities of alternative 
non-military national service. A program was instituted about two years ago that required Arabs to do community service for a couple of years in their own communities and that would entitle them to the same rights as those serving in the IDF. The Arab political leaders objected to this program and encouraged their own people not to participate. As I understand it growing numbers of Arabs are not listening to their political leaders.


Habesor  

Habesor
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2010 - 9:35AM #45
Dostojevsky
Posts: 4,746

Oct 17, 2010 -- 1:04AM, habesor wrote:


Kindredsai,


In Israel there is no civil marriage. All marriages are conducted by the religious functionaries including Jewish, Christian and Muslim clergy among others.


Habesor 



Bit strange; Israel is a secular state but all marriages are religious?

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2010 - 11:04AM #46
habesor
Posts: 4,859

Dos, Israel is a secular state. All marriages performed in Israel are religious. However the state recognizes civil marriages performed abroad. Dos, if you think that Israel should have civil marriages, I agree. If you think that Israel should have same sex marriages, I also agree. Israel doesn't have civil marriage but extends certain rights of married couples to couples who are not married formally but are "known to the pubic" as being a couple. It is sort of like common law marriage in certain American states. In addition gay couples are also not married but have many of the rights of formally married non-gay  (sad?) couples. 


The system is by no means perfect but it has changed over time and I expect that one of these days we will have civil marriage. It is a fact that Jewish marriages as they are specified in the Talmud, are civil unions. However, the Rabbis have established a role in the wedding ceremony and they don't want to give up the resulting prerogatives. There are some political parties, on the right and the left, advocating civil marriage. At the moment the arrangement doesn't bother the Israeli electorate enough to make a fuss about it. 


Habesor

Habesor
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2010 - 8:01PM #47
KindredSai
Posts: 4,518

Oct 17, 2010 -- 11:04AM, habesor wrote:


Dos, Israel is a secular state. All marriages performed in Israel are religious. However the state recognizes civil marriages performed abroad. Dos, if you think that Israel should have civil marriages, I agree. If you think that Israel should have same sex marriages, I also agree. Israel doesn't have civil marriage but extends certain rights of married couples to couples who are not married formally but are "known to the pubic" as being a couple. It is sort of like common law marriage in certain American states. In addition gay couples are also not married but have many of the rights of formally married non-gay  (sad?) couples. 


The system is by no means perfect but it has changed over time and I expect that one of these days we will have civil marriage. It is a fact that Jewish marriages as they are specified in the Talmud, are civil unions. However, the Rabbis have established a role in the wedding ceremony and they don't want to give up the resulting prerogatives. There are some political parties, on the right and the left, advocating civil marriage. At the moment the arrangement doesn't bother the Israeli electorate enough to make a fuss about it. 


Habesor




 


Habesor,


It's good to see we both agree about civil marriages.


Yet in agreement with Dos, Israel's secular nature should prevent the institution of marriage being religious...civil marriage should be a de-facto rule in a Secular democratic society.


There's no point trying to band aid the rule by saying "they can my in Cyprus....so it's fine".


Marriage as a civil right is part of the UN declaration of human rights article 16:


"men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family."

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2010 - 5:41PM #48
IDBC
Posts: 4,088

Howdy BaDboy


 


 


 

Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


Furthermore, as you acknowledge BD there was always a small, fluctuating prescence of Jews in Palestine--importantly, this is pre-Zionism.


>>>>>> I do not understand that, why do you assume that, I am doing to deny a historical fact just to win an argument ?


I am not here to bash any group rather share my opinion about this topic. Certain members are extracting "Muslim" flavor from opinions. 



Do you think it may be because you are a Muslim?


 

Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


Couple years ago I read an article where the author shown that, Palestinians were there even before Jews migrated from Africa to modern day Palestine. 



Show me the article!  


ALL human beings migrated from Africa.  


 The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎ "Yehudim" IPA: jɛhuːdiːm), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. 


The first of the two ancient eras spanned from 1350[9] to 586 BCE, and encompassed the periods of the Judges, the United Monarchy, and the Divided Monarchy of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, ending with the destruction of the First Temple. "


For further details:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews


Palestine has not existed as an independent country or nation for a long, long, long time. 


There is a difference between "modern" Palestine and "ancient" Palestine. 


"As a geographic term, Palestine can refer to "ancient Palestine," an area that today includes Israel and the [2] Palestinian territories, as well as part of Jordan, and some of both Lebanon and Syria.[1]


Palestine then is not only "occupied" by Israel but is also "occupied" by JORDAN, LEBANON, and SYRIA. 


I would also point out that the ancient Palestinians-Philistines WERE NOT MUSLIMS.  They were idol worshipping, human-sacrifcing polytheists. 


Philistine culture was almost fully integrated with that of Canaan and the Canaanites. The deities they worshiped were Baal, Astarte and Dagon, whose names or variations thereof appear in the Canaanite pantheon as well.


For further details:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine


It is thought that the ancient Philistines were NOT Arabic or semitic. That they are not "native" to the geographic region. 


"The Philistines (whose traces disappear before the 5th century BCE) are presently considered to have been among them, giving the name Philistia to the region in which they settled, located in present-day Gaza. Around 1480 BCE, the Israelites emerged in the area, settling mostly in the mountainous regions of Judea near Hebron, the burial site of their tribal patriarchs Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham


The ancient Philistines were of Greek  origin.  Seafarers who "occupied" the Holy Land.   Philistines (Hebrew: פְּלִשְׁתִּים‎, p'lishtim) (see "other uses" below) were a people who occupied the southern coast of Canaan, their territory being named Philistia in later contexts. It is theorized that the latter Philistines originated among the "sea peoples". Modern archaeology has also suggested early cultural links with the Mycenean world in Greece.[1] 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistia 


Palestine-Philista and Israel did have their problems but treaties were made between them. Palestine-Philista ceased to exist when the Babyalonions conquered the entire region, including Isreal.  When the Persians  then conquered the Babylonia the allowed the Jews to re-establish Judea, but not the establishment of Palestine-Philistia.  Then the Greeks defeated the Persians, the Romans defeated the Greeks, and the Arab-Muslims then defeated Rome, they lost Palestine it and regained.  And all during the time the Muslims controlled the region up until the end of WWI they did grant independence to Palestine.    


 


 


 

Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


Personally it does not effect me if some or all Jews start to live in Palestine. However I feel this sort of populist-religious ideologies are reason for much destruction in our world. Jews, Muslim or Christians can always travel or visit the "Holy land".



Does it affect you personally if people, wether Jews, Christians, Muslims, or even Atheists want to LIVE in the "Holy Land".  I would agree with you that religious idealogies are the reason for so much destruction in the Holey Land and on the rest of the planet. 


Or maybe it is the Not-Real, So-Called, Misunderstanders and Hijackers or "true-tolerant-peaceful"  religious idealogies that is the cause of destruction in the Holey Land and the rest of the planet.  


Is it okay with you that Jews and Christians can VISIT Islamic "Holy(?) Lands" like Arabia, Mecca, and Medina?   


 

Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


 It they want to take a few truck load of "Sand" from there to fulfill any religious rituals in Germany, they can.


 


By "they" do you mean Muslims, Christians and Jews? 


I am pretty sure that none of  these groups use "Sand" to fulfill any religious rituals anywhere.


 


 


 

Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


 What troubles me that, WHY ALL of them have to move there at the same time and FORCE native population and make refugees out of them.


 


Surely not ALL of them use FORCE to make native poplulace refugees.  Surely Muslims would never  ever do such a thing. 


Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:

 Reminds me about American history and native Americans { Also known as red Indians} and "Trail of tears".  



It reminds me of when the native Pagan, Jews and Christians were......requested  to leave Arabia when Not-Real, So-Called, Misuderstanders and Hijackers of Islam consolidated their conqueroring of Arabia. 


It reminds me of the appox 500,000 native Jews refuggees who made an....Exodus from Arab lands in 1948. 


The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands refers to the 20th century mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century and peaked following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Between 800,000-1,000,000 Jews were expelled or left their homes in Arab countries due to persecution and anti-Semitism.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_refugees_from_Arab_lands


 


Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


 As I mentioned before, Rachel was not just one case. Every month new "Settlers" [ You can call them outlaws, looters etc but in Israel it is "Kosher"] are removing native population. State of Israel is allowing them to keep firearms and helping them terrorizing native population. While calling them 'Terrorists" if they want to oppose this savage ideas.



Well the reason that the State of Israel is allowing the "settlers" to have weapons is to protect themselves from freedom fighters who are defending themselves in disputed settlements.  Of course you could call these freedom fighters like Abu Nidal Organization , Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades , HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement), Islamic Jihad Group , Palestine Liberation Front ,Palestinian Islamic Jihad , Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine , PFLP-General Command or you could call them terrorists and populist-religious ideologes are reason for much destruction in our world.  


It is interesting that none of these freedom fighter-terrorists are Christians-Palestinians. 


And these are just the freedom fighters, So-Called, Not Real, Hijackers in Palestine. 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._State_Departm...


 


Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


The same United Nations which re-created Israel, calls these activities illigal but who cares? As long these are non-Jews!!



Especially as  long as these are illegal activities are mostly Muslims. 


 


Oct 15, 2010 -- 3:51PM, BDboy wrote:


Guess we used to call it "Racism". .........  


 


If we did call it "Racism" we were wrong to do so because the Palestinians are neither not a race.  It is a group of people, Muslims and Christians(but NOT JEWS)who live in geographic region called modern Palestine. 


"Racism is the belief that the genetic factors which constitute race are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1] Racism's effects are called "racial discrimination." In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or receive preferential treatment. "


Now if you are referencing Muslims who are living in ISLAMIC Palestine you could call it religious bigotry.  Or if you are referring to the Muslims AND Christians(but NOT JEWS)living in Palestine you could call it ethnocentricism, or geographic centrism. 


But Racism would not be accurate. 


Personally I don't think there is ever going to be peace in Palestine.  I think referring to it as the "Holy" Land is a pathetic joke.   


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile


P.S.  


Are Same Sex Civil Marriage perfomed in another country recoginized in Israel? 


Can an Israeli woman who happens to be Muslim marry an Israeli men who happens to be Jewish or Christian?  


 


 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2010 - 4:32AM #49
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 1,988

Oct 16, 2010 -- 5:18PM, KindredSai wrote:

What about the law which does not allow mixed religious marriages to be performed in Israel? (Correct me if I'm wrong?)



Habesor has replied, but I will mention that there is no such law prohibiting mixed marriages.


Israel recognizes marriages (any marriages, civil or otherwise) that were performed abroad, and domestically that were performed in any of the recognized religious courts (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc.). If those religious courts do not perform mixed-religion marriages, then the result is that such marriages effectively cannot be carried out in Israel. However, has Habesor has mentioned, there is a pseudo-civil option domestically.


Oct 16, 2010 -- 5:18PM, KindredSai wrote:

Or which gives Arabs optional military service which means if they don't join, they are by default not given the same social advantages as the average Israeli-Jew.



This is correct, but it is an interpretation. The advantages of being an IDF veteran are not as large as they may seem. I personally haven't seen it in my life.


For the record, by request of the local Arab community, Arabs are not drafted to the Israeli military. Druze are, as their community requested it.


Arab citizens of Israel are welcome to join the IDF, or perform National Service.  I have a direct relative who was refused by the IDF, and did National Service anyway.  Any Arab can do the same.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2010 - 4:51AM #50
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 1,988

Oct 18, 2010 -- 5:41PM, IDBC wrote:

Are Same Sex Civil Marriage perfomed in another country recoginized in Israel? 


I believe so, but I'm not 100% sure. Habesor, do you know?


Oct 18, 2010 -- 5:41PM, IDBC wrote:

Can an Israeli woman who happens to be Muslim marry an Israeli man who happens to be Jewish or Christian?  


Not in Israel, as there would be no recognized court that would perform such a marriage.


However,


Were they to marry abroad, the marriage would be recognized. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 5 of 37  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 37 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook