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Switch to Forum Live View Israelis try to derail peace talks.
4 years ago  ::  Oct 10, 2010 - 2:40AM #281
arielg
Posts: 9,116


 


As a person who claims that he knows the basic aims of Zionism after  reading one misquote from Ben Gurion and another statement allegedly  made by Ben Gurion to a political opponent (and only recorded by that  opponent many years after it was supposedly made) I am surprised that  you find it so difficult to believe that the Arabs (never mind the  Persians) have intentions to kill Jews and you so readily chalk up the  whole issue of Arab genocidal intent to Jewish paranoia. Here are a few  public quotes by Arab leaders before and at the time of Israel's  independence. I'm sure that you will explain them away but before you  do, could you tell us what your common sense interprets their meanings  to be:


You know better than that.  This was no accidental statement.  The whole history of  Zionism is loaded with this kind of statements.


 


The invasion [of the about to be declared State of Israel]  was hardly surprising. Mufti e


-Husseini, one of the worst Nazi  collaborators, called for Jihad against Jews in a 1943 b


roadcast from  Radio Berlin during the height of the Holocaust:

  • Kill the Jews wherever you find them, this is pleasing to Allah.

 


Prior to the 1948 war against Israel, the Iraqi  Prime Minister said all the Arabs would need would be "a few brooms" to  drive the Jews into the sea. All they were waiting for was the British  and said, "once we get the green light from the British we can easily  throw out the Jews." [Quote from Sir Geoffrey Furlonge, "Palestine Is My  Country: The Story of Musa Alami (Praeger Press, 1969)]


 


On  the day that Israel declared its independence, Azzam Pasha, Secretary  General of the Arab League, at Cairo press conference, (reported in the  New York Times, May 16, 1948) declared "jihad", a holy war. He said that  the Arab states rejected partition and intended to set up a "United  State of Palestine." He then stated:

  • "This will be a war of extermination and a  momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres  and the Crusades".

 


 ArielG, that is just for starters. If you want, I can fill  up this whole thread with quoitations of Arab political, religious and  cultural leaders, all advocating genocide against the Jewish population  of the State of Israel, and in some cases Jews in general. 


 


Habesor


Obviously the conflict has a long history, but the modern aspects of it are  reactions to the  Zionists  establishment of an exclusive Jewish state. Of course they want to get rid of them. They didn't go to Europe and the US looking for trouble. Troubles were brought to them by the Zionists intent on building their utopia on the back of the residents of the region.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 10, 2010 - 2:42AM #282
LeahOne
Posts: 16,126

MM, in skimming your posts it seems to me that you have several misunderstandings about what Judaism teaches and what Jews believe.


It *also* seems to me that you have a basic across-the-board-dislike/distrust of ANY religion's adherents - which of course is your right.  But I think it may be worth your while to consider whether that may color your view of any given religion.


As I've pointed out to people before, the'chosen' thing doesn't mean what 'outsiders' allege - it never has.  It refers to our being chosen for the Covenant we cling to.  In the Torah, it is recognized that other peoples have other Covenants with YHVH.  AND it is also recognized that He loves and cares about *every* tribe of Man, polytheist pagans included.


Nobody is teaching Jewish children that they are 'better' than anyone else. Is vanilla inherently 'better' than chocolate or strawberry?  Or might different peopel have different favorite flavors?


Nobody is teaching Jewish children that Judaism is 'true' and everyone else's faiths are 'false':  we are teaching them that Judaism is OUR faith and the right one FOR US.  (In case you wondered, so ar as we ever mention a 'heaven', it's open to anyone as it doesn't depend on doctrinal beliefs)


The other MAJOR misunderstanding I see in your posts, MM, is an idea that 'orthodox' Jews take the Torah as literally true in the same way that 'conservative' or 'fundamentalist' Christians do.  And that is absolutely NOT!!! the case.   IT'S JUST NOT.  Nor was it the case in ancient days.


Simply reading the words about 'Jews using their religion to give an excuse for oppressing another group' makes me physically nauseous, it's such anathema to everything I've learned in my faith for over 50 years!   And I have to wonder what the dickens you are looking at that you are thinking such things......because at no time have I heard any rabbi or teacher express an idea that we are 'better' in the ways your words suggest, nor have I read such things.......


Now I understand that this post MIGHT be considered 'off-topic' - but where people have stated my religion teaches what I know I have never been taught, I think if those words are allowed, my answer to them should also be.


While I concede it's possible there may be some loony fringe sect in Judaism which distorts our Teachings to claim we are 'superior' to another people,  that won't make it 'mainstream' or 'acceptable'.  And it certainly won't be in accord with the rest of the Teachings.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 10, 2010 - 2:52AM #283
LeahOne
Posts: 16,126

Arielg, that is your opinion.   Certainly it's the opinion of someone who chose to claim they had no idea 'jewwatch' was anti-semitic.  Someone who claims the Jews have 'excessive influence'....who insists 'Zionism is evil'.


I submit that since you 'didn't know' that - you aren't competent to make any judgements about whether something is 'antisemitic' or not.  Which means it's idiotic to heed your comments about 'Zionist paranoia' or anything else on the entire topic.


Anyone who has tried to claim the filth and lies on 'jewwatch' had any veracity or reliability has demonstrated themselves to be so far entrenched in anti-semitic bigoted fantasy that I for one see no point in including them in any such discussion.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2010 - 8:11AM #284
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Oct 10, 2010 -- 2:52AM, LeahOne wrote:


Arielg, that is your opinion.   Certainly it's the opinion of someone who chose to claim they had no idea 'jewwatch' was anti-semitic.  Someone who claims the Jews have 'excessive influence'....who insists 'Zionism is evil'.


I submit that since you 'didn't know' that - you aren't competent to make any judgements about whether something is 'antisemitic' or not.  Which means it's idiotic to heed your comments about 'Zionist paranoia' or anything else on the entire topic.


Anyone who has tried to claim the filth and lies on 'jewwatch' had any veracity or reliability has demonstrated themselves to be so far entrenched in anti-semitic bigoted fantasy that I for one see no point in including them in any such discussion.




My answers to your constant accusations are deleted, based on who knows what, so I don't have anything to say to you.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2010 - 11:48AM #285
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,307

Ariel


There are rules concerning what you can and cannot say here on Beliefnet. They are posted somewhere here, I think at the beginning of each forum's site. When one makes a mistake and writes something which violates the rules, it generally gets removed and the poster receives a message from B'net explaining that it was removed and why. Check your inbox.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2010 - 1:07PM #286
LeahOne
Posts: 16,126

"Obviously the conflict has a long history, but the modern aspects of it are  reactions to the  Zionists  establishment of an exclusive Jewish state. Of course they want to get rid of them. They didn't go to Europe and the US looking for trouble. Troubles were brought to them by the Zionists intent on building their utopia on the back of the residents of the region."




Since there were murderous riots against the Jewish community in Damascus in 1929, among many other incidents of Muslim-on-Jew violence, it seems far more likely that the Muslim community was incited to violence against the Jewish minority on many occasions - just like the peasants in Eastern Europe.


The Zionists, contrary to the 'information' found at 'jewwatch' AND OTHER HATE SPEECH SITES, had no intent to dominate, oppress or harm anyone.  There is NOTHING in either Jewish or Zionist philosophy which would support such actions.


And there had been a Jewish AND 'Zionist' presence in the region for decades before the partition.


As to 'on the backs of the residents of the region' - Just under ONE MILLION of said residents were forced penniless off their lands and from their homes in'47-'49.  Any 'discussion' of the human misery associated with that time which does NOT include a discussion of those refugees is incomplete and biased.


Those 950,000 homeless people were MADE homeless *simply because they were Jews in Arab lands*  


It's NOT the Jews - with 20% minorities having full legal rights - who are 'exclusivist':  the actual history shows it's historically been Arabs who desire an 'exclusive' state.  Nearly ALL 100,000 of Iran's Jews have fled that nation since it became 'an Islamic Republic' - and started executing Jews on trumped-up charges before confiscating their estates.


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4 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2010 - 1:14PM #287
LeahOne
Posts: 16,126

"You know better than that.  This was no accidental statement.  The whole history of  Zionism is loaded with this kind of statements."


Only the 'history' presented by a site titled 'jewwatch' or its assorted clones.


Decent people know better than to trust anything coming off of a site like that....of course it is different fofr anti-semites.  They just gobble that filth right up.

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