I honestly don't think that if Hitler hadn't been in command Germany would have won the war! No way. Yes, it is true that his idiotic decisions, especially concerning Russia, helped the Allies greatly, and it's true that there were plots against his life that always failed, which turned out to be a good thing after all.
But there is no way that the Americans and British and other Allies were going to be defeated by the Nazis. For one thing, by 1944 the Wolf Packs had been virtually eliminated and the convoys were getting through. For another, British and American bombers were quickly destroying the munitions factories in Germany, not to mention the very cities of Germany itself.
We've all seen the footage of postwar Germany, with the mile after mile after mile of bombed-out cities that look like nothing more than piles of rubble.
By D-Day, Germany had no more Air Force, and no way of getting it back.
Then, you have the amazing industrial might of America at that time, turning out bombers and munitions and even liberty ships literally almost by the hour. Everybody was pitching in, then, and it showed.
America is fifty times as big as Germany, and at that time, anyway, filled with a resolve to finish off the Nazis (and the Japs) that could not be stopped.
I could go on and on, but the upshot is that the Allies were going to defeat Germany, with or without Hitler.
I disagree. The war on the Eastern Front kept up to 80 percent of the German resources tied up -- meaning the Anglo-American allies faced only about 20 percent. And they still held us off for more than a year, and managed to consistantly inflict more casulties than the suffered.
Had they had the full compliment of their gound forces to bear, plus their air force (which was wasted on the Eastern Front) and better tactics (Hitler stupidly held up counter-attacks after D-Day), the Germans very well could have mopped the floor with the Western allies in Normandy.
Why do you think FDR promoted Lend-Lease in the first place? He let the Soviets do the fighting after Germany was foolish enough to pull a Napoleon.
I'm not trying to be snide here. I was five on V-J day 65 years ago and I remember it.
In the D-Day landings it is true that the Americans were held up for a day, but the British and Canadians were not. And, even though the Americans were pinned down for that day or so, they quickly broke out, made it through the hedgerows, and eventually into Germany.
There was no doubt that the Allies were going to do this, no matter how long it took.
You seem to underestimate the incredible strength and size of the U.S. military and their determination to finish off Germany whatever it took.
Germany had a finite number of both men, weapons, and machines with which to fight what was, from the start, an unwinnable war for them. It was only a matter of time. And the generals knew that as well, and they would have surrendered far earlier had Hitler not been in power.
Hitler's mistake was declaring war on the U.S. in the first place, because, given the strength of the anti-war movement in the U.S. in the 1930s, and Americans' reluctance to go to war against anybody, it might have been possible that FDR would not have declared war against Germany.
As Churchill said, after Hitler declared war against America, he had his first good night's sleep in years.
Solf, had 100 percent -- instead of 20 percent -- of the German military been waiting in Normandy, the price paid for the breakouts might have been more than the American public could bear. That was my point... with only 20 percent of their strenght -- and no air power to speak of -- the Germans still managed to give us Hell.
Either way, none of that changes the fact that Hitler was the most evil bastard who ever lived. It would have been great to hand him rock-solid evidence of his Jewish heritage -- if such a thing does exist.
I honestly don't think that if Hitler hadn't been in command Germany would have won the war! No way. Yes, it is true that his idiotic decisions, especially concerning Russia, helped the Allies greatly, and it's true that there were plots against his life that always failed, which turned out to be a good thing after all.
But there is no way that the Americans and British and other Allies were going to be defeated by the Nazis. For one thing, by 1944 the Wolf Packs had been virtually eliminated and the convoys were getting through. For another, British and American bombers were quickly destroying the munitions factories in Germany, not to mention the very cities of Germany itself.
We've all seen the footage of postwar Germany, with the mile after mile after mile of bombed-out cities that look like nothing more than piles of rubble.
By D-Day, Germany had no more Air Force, and no way of getting it back.
Then, you have the amazing industrial might of America at that time, turning out bombers and munitions and even liberty ships literally almost by the hour. Everybody was pitching in, then, and it showed.
America is fifty times as big as Germany, and at that time, anyway, filled with a resolve to finish off the Nazis (and the Japs) that could not be stopped.
I could go on and on, but the upshot is that the Allies were going to defeat Germany, with or without Hitler.
I disagree. The war on the Eastern Front kept up to 80 percent of the German resources tied up -- meaning the Anglo-American allies faced only about 20 percent. And they still held us off for more than a year, and managed to consistantly inflict more casulties than the suffered.
Had they had the full compliment of their gound forces to bear, plus their air force (which was wasted on the Eastern Front) and better tactics (Hitler stupidly held up counter-attacks after D-Day), the Germans very well could have mopped the floor with the Western allies in Normandy.
Why do you think FDR promoted Lend-Lease in the first place? He let the Soviets do the fighting after Germany was foolish enough to pull a Napoleon.
I'm not trying to be snide here. I was five on V-J day 65 years ago and I remember it.
Yeah, the Soviets are really the ones who brought Nazi Germany down -- and they did it by burying the Germans in mountains of Russian corpses. It wasn't an unusual tactic for the Soviets to just keep throwing massive suicide charges and German defensive positions until the Germans ran out of ammunition. Simply, and brutally, put -- the Russians had sheer numbers and the sheer will to win the war that way.
Americans can be way too self-congradulatory sometimes. I really doubt we could have endured what the Russians went through.
I honestly don't think that if Hitler hadn't been in command Germany would have won the war! No way. Yes, it is true that his idiotic decisions, especially concerning Russia, helped the Allies greatly, and it's true that there were plots against his life that always failed, which turned out to be a good thing after all.
But there is no way that the Americans and British and other Allies were going to be defeated by the Nazis. For one thing, by 1944 the Wolf Packs had been virtually eliminated and the convoys were getting through. For another, British and American bombers were quickly destroying the munitions factories in Germany, not to mention the very cities of Germany itself.
We've all seen the footage of postwar Germany, with the mile after mile after mile of bombed-out cities that look like nothing more than piles of rubble.
By D-Day, Germany had no more Air Force, and no way of getting it back.
Then, you have the amazing industrial might of America at that time, turning out bombers and munitions and even liberty ships literally almost by the hour. Everybody was pitching in, then, and it showed.
America is fifty times as big as Germany, and at that time, anyway, filled with a resolve to finish off the Nazis (and the Japs) that could not be stopped.
I could go on and on, but the upshot is that the Allies were going to defeat Germany, with or without Hitler.
I disagree. The war on the Eastern Front kept up to 80 percent of the German resources tied up -- meaning the Anglo-American allies faced only about 20 percent. And they still held us off for more than a year, and managed to consistantly inflict more casulties than the suffered.
Had they had the full compliment of their gound forces to bear, plus their air force (which was wasted on the Eastern Front) and better tactics (Hitler stupidly held up counter-attacks after D-Day), the Germans very well could have mopped the floor with the Western allies in Normandy.
Why do you think FDR promoted Lend-Lease in the first place? He let the Soviets do the fighting after Germany was foolish enough to pull a Napoleon.
I'm not trying to be snide here. I was five on V-J day 65 years ago and I remember it.
Yeah, the Soviets are really the ones who brought Nazi Germany down -- and they did it by burying the Germans in mountains of Russian corpses. It wasn't an unusual tactic for the Soviets to just keep throwing massive suicide charges and German defensive positions until the Germans ran out of ammunition. Simply, and brutally, put -- the Russians had sheer numbers and the sheer will to win the war that way.
Americans can be way too self-congradulatory sometimes. I really doubt we could have endured what the Russians went through.
And the Soviets were awarded the eastern half of Europe.
They never helped clean up the Pacific after victory in Europe. That was left to the Americans who fought like hell.
You're right that, in the end, it was the Russians that could be said to have 'won' the European war. And you're right to point out that they did it by sheer numbers.
I also agree that Americans do seem to be insufferably self-congratulatory at times, although, with the very real fiscal crises facing the country now, and so many other problems, my take on Americans these days is that they are more sad sacks than warriors.
Jane -
Your posts in which you laud the military and brag about being the most powerful nation on earth, etc., are...well...frankly scary. You sound like a schoolyard bully, struting around, telling everybody what you'll do if they look at you wrong. I can assure you that this is not the way to win friends and influence people!
America used to be thought of as, well, like somebody's friendly big brother, always ready to help the little guy. Now, the U.S. seems more like an angry tyrant, and the impression is not a pleasant one for other people in other nations.
Hitler could not have pulled off what he did without millions of people. He had an army, he had civilians that either overtly or tacitly agreeing with him and allowing him to do what he did. A lot of people had to look the other way to pull off the death camps. He did not do this alone or with just 3 parties help.
Yes, 39 relatives are enough to get a reasonable probability of what DNA he shared with them and to determine what his ethnicity is.
Oh but the people were disarmed, through the selective creeping process of gun registration and then that permitted gun confiscation later. So while countless people did not agree with Hitler's regime, that's why so many helped hide those select classes his terrorism targeted, the most famous being Anne Frank and her family, unarmed they were unable to fight a fully armed government with a military backing it's play.
Also, let's not forget that those in Hitlers own ranks didn't agree with him. Hence the assination attempts that failed. The 2008 movie, "Valkyrie"is the Hollywood story of but one plot that failed, but originated from even the highest of the ranks, to stop Hitler.
There are a great many lessons to be learned from Hitler's term in office. The most important to start with is that everything he did, was legal!
And while those at Nuremberg may have claimed they didn't want to do what they did, the great and everlasting shame to their name, is that they did it! And their excuse, as is afforded even today by those who commit egregious acts allegedly against their conscience, is; we were just following orders.
Or, I'm only doing my job. Or, I'm just doing what I'm told .
Those sentences are not a pardon for what is effected in the aftermath of saying those empty words. They're rather a lesson in what a weak mind can be persuaded to do, because they truly do want to do it. They simply use the excuse they're obedient to the evil whim of someone else outside of themselves, in the process. That makes them sadistic and cowardly and unpardonable. Crimes worthy of death, so as to root out the seed that could otherwise stand to populate the future. And the lesson in saying that is, that's exactly what Hitler intended in his own Reich.
See how hate works?That's the other lesson from all this.
“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” Hermann Goering, Adolph Hitler's Reichsmarschall during the Nuremberg trials but said in private to one Gustave Gilbert. A German speaking American Military Chief Psychologist who was granted free access to numerous high ranking Nazi officers during the trials and provided testimony attesting the sanity of Rudolf Hess.
"Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family." Stephen Colbert
Let me point out just one place your argument breaks down in the fact department.
Ann Frank and her family were not Germans. They were not German citizens who had been "slowly" disarmed as you imply.
They were citizens of a conquered nation. Amsterdam is in Holland, you know. The Dutch people NEVER had an opportunity to say whether of not they "wanted" Nazi rule. The Blitzkreig kind of decided for them.
Democrats think the glass is half full. Republicans think the glass is theirs. Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
Let me point out just one place your argument breaks down in the fact department.
Ann Frank and her family were not Germans. They were not German citizens who had been "slowly" disarmed as you imply.
They were citizens of a conquered nation. Amsterdam is in Holland, you know. The Dutch people NEVER had an opportunity to say whether of not they "wanted" Nazi rule. The Blitzkreig kind of decided for them.
Let me point out one big place where your desire to take me to task, is defeated by your inability to actually read me first.
I never said Anne Frank was German! In fact, anyone that knows anything about WW2 know that Hitler did not restrict his assault to Germany!
Furthermore, I do not "imply" anything. And the next time you decide to speak to me by trying to talk down, do your image a favor and read me first. So you're ignorance isn't supplanted by your arrogance.
"Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family." Stephen Colbert
You're right that, in the end, it was the Russians that could be said to have 'won' the European war. And you're right to point out that they did it by sheer numbers.
I also agree that Americans do seem to be insufferably self-congratulatory at times, although, with the very real fiscal crises facing the country now, and so many other problems, my take on Americans these days is that they are more sad sacks than warriors.
Jane -
Your posts in which you laud the military and brag about being the most powerful nation on earth, etc., are...well...frankly scary. You sound like a schoolyard bully, struting around, telling everybody what you'll do if they look at you wrong. I can assure you that this is not the way to win friends and influence people!
America used to be thought of as, well, like somebody's friendly big brother, always ready to help the little guy. Now, the U.S. seems more like an angry tyrant, and the impression is not a pleasant one for other people in other nations.
Hi Solf
I probably was a schoolyard leader by persuasion--learned that from my dad. My eighth grade teacher told my mother I was a pied-piper and a director. Luckily I attended a Catholic high school with classmates who were mostly leaders, too !!
We Americans have recently stepped up to help Russia with its forest fires, China with its mudslides and Pakistan with its floods. Are there political ramifications? Yes, but that is not the whole story. We've also sent the most aid to Haiti. Our USAID delivers more help than any other group. We pay for that.
You know I've often admitted some of our grave mistakes.
I can sound like a chauvinist, I suppose. And the US is living in difficult times. We also tend to be a hopeful people that we will come out of these doldrums. As many here do, I would like to revert to a Fortress America and let the rest of the world solve its own problems.
Rabble-rousing by the right is huge here right now--the modern Know-Nothings. I'm disgusted with Beck's appearance near our Lincoln Memorial; I find it a disgrace. It was Dubya who sullied our reputation; I was floored that he had no passport prior to his election as president !!
You know I don't buy into that notion about Russia defeating the Axis almost single-handely. When it comes up I will do my best to refute it.
Let me point out just one place your argument breaks down in the fact department.
Ann Frank and her family were not Germans. They were not German citizens who had been "slowly" disarmed as you imply.
They were citizens of a conquered nation. Amsterdam is in Holland, you know. The Dutch people NEVER had an opportunity to say whether of not they "wanted" Nazi rule. The Blitzkreig kind of decided for them.
Let me point out one big place where your desire to take me to task, is defeated by your inability to actually read me first.
I never said Anne Frank was German! In fact, anyone that knows anything about WW2 know that Hitler did not restrict his assault to Germany!
Furthermore, I do not "imply" anything. And the next time you decide to speak to me by trying to talk down, do your image a favor and read me first. So you're ignorance isn't supplanted by your arrogance.
Oh, for pete's sake, get real.
Now we are going to hassle about Anne Frank.......................
I read her diary over fifty years ago. And I have never forgotten it.
Most of us are well aware of the Panzer assault in the Low Countries and the why of it. Bye-bye Maginot Line.
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