Post Reply
Page 4 of 12  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 12 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Why Israel is always singled out?
4 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2010 - 7:05AM #31
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,708

Steven, if it happened in any other country, people would also respond and offer all sorts of arguments. If it happened in Iran and they did it to a Christian, the whole American media would be up in arms. Would you object to that?


No need for you to be offended. Show bit of compassion for the poor man he just wants to pray. Every country has its demons so does Israel. If it faces them it will be better for it if not it will destroy itself.


Same laws apply to us humans.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2010 - 11:01AM #32
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Jun 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, Ricky wrote:


"So try as you might to portray the situation in Gaza as a Nazi concentration camp, the full shelves in the markets, shops and retail outlets in Gaza testify to the contrary."


Then why are so many starving in a manner that so closely parallels what Jews did in Nazi ghettoes and which have been documented on this forum?


Can we stop the lunacy -- idiocy -- that the Gaza Strip in any way resembles the Warsaw Ghetto? Compared to the Warsaw Ghetto the Ghetto Strip is picnic. Let's talk numbers.


-- Let's start with the size. The Warsaw Ghetto was about 3.5 square miles. The Gaza Stip is about 140 square miles. That's around 40 times the size.


-- About 500,000 Jews were squeezed into those 3.5 sq miles. About 1.5 million Gazans live in the Strip. In other words, to get the same type of cramped feeling, there would have to be 60 million Gazans living there (40 x 1.5 million). Put another way, that would be only 12,500 Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto (1/40 of 500,000).


-- Average food rations in 1941 for Jews in Warsaw were limited to 186 cal, compared to 1669 cal for gentile Poles and 2,614 cal for Germans. A daily calorie limit of 186 calories per day is about the equivalent of a cup of Cheerios with milk. (Nutritional information printed on food packaging in America provides for a 2,000-2,500 calorie diet.) Eventually, each Jew had to live a entire month on two pounds of bread, nine ounces of sugar, three and a half ounces of jam, and one and three quarters ounces of fat. Meat and cheese were almost impossible to find. By contrast, Khaled Abdel Shaafi, director the United Nations Development Program, said "There is a large surplus of fruit and vegetables [in Gaza].  The vast majority of people here aren't wanting for food. Reports of children  are suffering from malnutrition are exaggerations. This is not a humanitarian  crisis, it's a political crisis, but it's not a humanitarian crisis. People  aren't starving."


-- People were literally starving to death in the Warsaw Ghetto: In the first 18 months of the Warsaw Ghetto, 15-20% of the Jews starved to death. Some 75-85,000 people would die of starvation there, including approximately 20,000 children. Those figures don't include those simply murdered, conscripted into labor battalions or sent to labor camps from which few returned.


-- Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did not have a Charter declaring that they were dedicated to the destruction of Germany and genocide of Germans.


-- Jews did not and did not have the ability to launch almost 10,000 missiles into German areas.


-- The Jews did not have a choice: the Nazis targeted them for racial hatred and extermination. There was nothing a Jew could do to change that. The Gazans have a choice: Get rid of Hamas! Restore democracy! And put a government in there not fanatically dedicated to jihad, the destruction of Israel and genocide against the Jewish people.


-- The Warsaw Ghetto was a planned way-station until the Nazis could implement the Final Solution. Gaza is a problem the Israelis wish to be solved via having a genuine peace partner (proof is their withdrawal from Gaza; further proof is Egypt and Jordan, former enemies, became partners in co-existence, if not peace).

Moderated by Merope on Jun 24, 2010 - 04:08PM
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2010 - 11:48AM #33
NahumS
Posts: 1,769

Jun 24, 2010 -- 7:05AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Steven, if it happened in any other country, people would also respond and offer all sorts of arguments. If it happened in Iran and they did it to a Christian, the whole American media would be up in arms. Would you object to that?


 


No need for you to be offended. Show bit of compassion for the poor man he just wants to pray. Every country has its demons so does Israel. If it faces them it will be better for it if not it will destroy itself.


 


Same laws apply to us humans.




It does seem wrong to prohibit someone praying in a holy place.


Jews are banned from praying on the Temple Mount (we are not speaking about the mosques there)- even in obscure corners where there are no Muslims present. Before religious Jews are permitted to visit the Mount (only 5 days a week, for a few hours in the morning and one hour in the afternoon- along with non-Muslim tourists), an Israeli policeman takes down their id. numbers and threatens them with arrest if they dare pray. The police "escort" them (along with a member of the Waqf with a loud walkie-talkie) guarding them from possible violence, but also watching their lips. regular tourists (and certainly Muslim worshippers) are not subjected to this. Closing one's eyes for a few seconds, whispering, or even moving one's lips can result in arrest.  I know a number of people who have never broken the law (maybe a parking violation) or behaved violently who were banned from the Mount for several weeks or more.


The official claim is that if Jews utter even a quiet, personal prayer on the Mount, all hell will break loose. The Muslim Waqf constantly threatens violence if Jews pray on the Temple Mount - the holiest place on earth for Jews.



Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2010 - 9:14AM #34
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,708

Tried to read up on it in order to understand what's going on but it's too much for now.. It appears there were the first temple and the second, and Jews want to build a third temple on the same spot which is ran by Muslims with their Mosque on it.


Did I get thet right?

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2010 - 10:15AM #35
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,551


Dos


There was the first temple


Then there was the second temple - which was destroyed by the Romans


In 691 the Dome of the Rock was built on the ruins of the Jewish Temple Mount


In 712 the Al Aqsa Mosque was built on the southern end of the Temple Mount and also over the Basilica of St. Mary


The construction of both the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque  were part and parcel of the Muslim conquerors policy of destroying other people's shrines and building their own shrines on the ruins. It was Islam's way of saying, "We have defeated you, we rule you." It had absolutely nothing to do do with religious observance or any particular  relationship of Islam with either Jerusalem or the Temple Mount.


While Jews look forward to the construction of the Third Temple - in the Messianic Age - there are no serious proposals for actually building such a structure.


What many observant and some not as observant Jews would like is the ability to pray openly at the holiest site in Judaism - the Temple Mount. Other observant Jews and not so observant Jews argue that no one at all should be on the Temple Mount for reasons varying from concerns about ritual purity to tradition to the idea that the spot is too holy to the idea that we all must await the messianic age to all sorts of other reasons.


While the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque are abominations which should not have been constructed, NO ONE seriously proposes their removal. The State of Israel has taken pains to assure access to these mosques by Muslims and has left these Mosques under the control of the traditional Muslim Authorities despite the fact that these authorities have undertaken a program of destruction of Jewish artifacts, denial of Jewish connection to the site, and sponsorship of violence againt Jews praying at the Kotel (The Western Wall) and any Jew who might dare to even whisper a prayer on the Temple Mount.     


Even you should know that during the 19 years of illegal occupation of portions of the city of Jerusalem, Jordan denied access by Jews to the religious sites in the portions of Jerusalem controlled by Jordan. In addition Jordan undertook a program of destruction of Jewish sites and monuments, not to mention the forced expulsions of Jews from all areas controlled by Jordan. This despite the fact that Jews had lived in these areas for centuries and the fact that the mandate required the close settlement of Jews in all areas west of the Jordan. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2010 - 12:34PM #36
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

Rocket's 'history lesson' is 100% accurate in every respect. There is nothing in his post that is not substantiated by numerous sources, scholars, accounts, historians, archeology and anything and everything else that may be used to prove something is accurate.


Rangerken, Beliefnet Community Moderator

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2010 - 1:46PM #37
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,894

Jun 25, 2010 -- 12:34PM, rangerken wrote:


Rocket's 'history lesson' is 100% accurate in every respect. There is nothing in his post that is not substantiated by numerous sources, scholars, accounts, historians, archeology and anything and everything else that may be used to prove something is accurate.


Rangerken, Beliefnet Community Moderator




That is correct, RJS has accurately stated the true history of the site.


Father O'blivion, Beliefnet Community fecal matter Disturber

Moderated by rangerken on Jun 25, 2010 - 01:51PM
The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2010 - 2:45PM #38
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,551

Ken and FO


There is some opinion in my post. I am fairly certain that most Muslims do not view the Mosques as abominations. They are only so from my point of view as a Jew who thinks we should wait until Messianic Times to build there.  They are actually quite beautiful, even if I would have preferred that they had been built elsewhere.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2010 - 3:12PM #39
Amin21
Posts: 4,643
I also disagree with the reasons the mosques were built where they are...

First according to very ancient sources of Islamic literature early Muslims originally prayed towards Jerusalem.

Second... the night journey is interpreted to have occurred there...

This is a proven belief of Muslims from works from at least one Muslim Historian who died less than 50 years after the second mosque was built. In other words an 1300 YO belief... (note I didn't say historical fact... as no one's religious texts should be presented as historical facts)

The interpretation of it being as a sing of conquest is questionable... especially considering the low status the temple mount had to the Christian Armies who were defeated in the taking of Jerusalem....

On the note of Coverting religious buildings into mosques as a victory sign this is only partially true... ancient societies were dominated by the temple... the market and central point of organization for cities were major religious structures... in that time it only made sense to convert a building over to the faith of the elite...  It was done by the Romans, it was done by the Greeks, it was done by the Christians and it was done by the Muslims... it was a seat of power and central organization... and important in commerce...

Both the temple mount in Jerusalem and the "Omayyad" Mosque in Damascus (taken by the Byzantines) had been through this already before Muslims ever came... Islam was neither the first religion nor the last at acting in this manner, nor the most prolific. Temples across the region, had after all already been converted into churches to reflect the official and dominant position of the Christian religion in post-Constantine East and West Rome...
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2010 - 4:58AM #40
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,894

Jun 25, 2010 -- 2:45PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ken and FO


 


There is some opinion in my post. I am fairly certain that most Muslims do not view the Mosques as abominations. They are only so from my point of view as a Jew who thinks we should wait until Messianic Times to build there.  They are actually quite beautiful, even if I would have preferred that they had been built elsewhere.




I didn't say I agreed with the opinions you expressed, just that the historical facts you presented were indeed factual to the best of my knowledge.


Amin's point about the temple structure in ancient society was commonly central to the layout of the city is also correct, and falls in with it being the conqueror's common practice of converting the local religious center to his own religion after conquest. In other words, although Amin says he disagrees, I see little difference in what he says vs. what you have said.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 4 of 12  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 12 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook