Post Reply
Page 6 of 12  •  Prev 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 12 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Why Israel is always singled out?
4 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2010 - 10:48PM #51
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

Interesting discussion.  I can remember being forced to ARGUE with posters here about the teachings of Judaism:  some were insisting that Judaism teaches 'only Jews go to Heaven'.  That is complete nonsense, as every Jew should know.  But even after I pointed out the sages teach "The righteous of ALL nations will have a share in the World to Come" - some one was still insisting that had to refer to a 'lesser' status.


I never did figure out what to call that (aside from stupid, bigoted and rude) - but I'd tend to class such deliberate disbelieving of what Jews say about our teachings as 'anti-Judaism'.  And it concerns me.  For when people are basically telling you 'you're lying to me' without being forthright enough to use the words - how is it possible to havea discussion with them?


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2010 - 11:30PM #52
habesor
Posts: 5,633

Ken,


Being opposed to Israel doesn't make one anti-Semitic unless one is opposed to Israel because they are anti-Jew. 


Looking at the Middle East we can find quite a few anti-Semites who clearly display their anti-Jew prejudices. For instance, the Hamas and Hezbollah  make no secret of the fact that they are anti-Jew. In fact, like all anti-Semites before them, they blame all of the world's problems on the Jews. In addition, reading books about life under Islamic regimes leads to the conclusion that mainstream Islam today suffers from the same sort of anti-Jew poison that was prevalent  in mainstream Christianity during the Middle Ages and into modern times. Arab nationalism is anti-Israel because Israel is not an Arab state, but embedded in this is the notion that Israel is unacceptable to the Muslim-Arab world because it is a Jewish state. Some westerners see this in terms of the American ideal of the separation of Church and State, but in the Middle East it is simply a reaffirmation of the superiority of Islam over all other religions and is therefore the exact opposite of the separation of church and state. For most Middle Easterners the Arab-Israeli conflict is pretty much the same sort of religious-political conflict as was the Hundred Years War in Europe. The question then becomes, is the western observer who is against the Jewish State for whatever stated reason, a proponent of non-secularism in modern states, or has he/she simply jumped on the Middle Eastern anti-Jew bandwagon to disguise from others and perhaps from themselves, anti-Jew attitudes that have been carried over from earlier Christian anti-Jew attitudes and beliefs.


Israel, it seems to me, is always singled out because it is small and unimportant to most of the other states in the world, while the Arab and increasingly the Muslim world, is very large and for various reasons important to most of the other states in the international community. I suppose we should be asking how much of the Arab/Muslim anti-Jew or anti-Semitic attitude is going to have to be accepted or is already accepted or re-adopted by the rest of the states in order to maintain favor with the Arab/Muslim world.


Habesor

Habesor
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2010 - 11:40PM #53
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

Rken, I was jsut discussing this with a friend the other day....someone she knew was talking about Israel and in about 2 sentences had gone from 'they are abusing the Palestinians' into "...and what's this stuff about 'chosen people' anyway?"


 


This person, IMO, had moved from what MAY have been a legitimate criticism of Israeli policy, to a 'criticism' of Judaism per se, MIScharacterizing a belief of Judaism to construe it as hurtful towards nonJews.   I'd call that last clause 'antiJudaism'.  And we've seen quite a lot of it on this board.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2010 - 11:52PM #54
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

Jun 28, 2010 -- 11:40PM, LeahOne wrote:


Rken, I was jsut discussing this with a friend the other day....someone she knew was talking about Israel and in about 2 sentences had gone from 'they are abusing the Palestinians' into "...and what's this stuff about 'chosen people' anyway?"


 


This person, IMO, had moved from what MAY have been a legitimate criticism of Israeli policy, to a 'criticism' of Judaism per se, MIScharacterizing a belief of Judaism to construe it as hurtful towards nonJews.   I'd call that last clause 'antiJudaism'.  And we've seen quite a lot of it on this board.





We try to keep that down, Leah, not always with success.


Obviously, Israel and Judaism are connected, just as the Arab countries nearby and Islam are connected. Equally obvious is that whereas Israel is a modern, prosperous, culturally advanced socieity its neighbors are not, and they are very, very jealous. I think that much of anti-semitism has always been based to some degree on envy, because of how successful Jewws seem to be out of proportion to their numbers. It's due to a lot of reasons, cultural, repect for education, etc, but it still breeds envy.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2010 - 12:14AM #55
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

The person who gave the best 'cultural' explanation I've heard for 'Jewish success' happened to be a Catholic seminary student.....  His comment was "In a world where most people are against you and your status is so insecure - what can you get for yourself that nobody can take away from you without killing you?"  And the answer is, an education. 


At least as far back as Maimonides some 800 years ago (he was Saladin's personal physician), the belief was that studying ANYTHING was studying Torah - for any art or science has to do with part of Creation.  So learning of any kind becomes an act of devotion to GOD.


And this belief is reflected in the social sructure, too - status was based on scholarship and piety rather than wealth.  Even in the Talmud, the educated could be said to be favored:  for a laborer was only required to respond to his wife's invitation once a week - but a scholar didn't exert himself physically so was expected to be 'responsive' six nights a week (yes, it's up to the woman to get things going...)


Of course, there's also the aspect that when your entire group is 'outcast' - you have to look out for one another, and you're reluctant to 'excommunicate' anyone.  That may explain why, when Jews argue 'religion' with other Jews, it's generally about practice and not 'theology'....

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2010 - 12:35AM #56
stevenlmeyer
Posts: 1,043

KS, F_O


 


Rocket put it well. I cannot imporve on his words so I'll simply quote him:


 


CRITICISM OF ISRAEL IS LEGITIMATE ONLY WHEN YOU USE THE SAME STANDARDS TO EVALUATE  ISRAEL AND THE ACTIONS OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AS YOU DO FOR ALL OTHER COUNTRIES AND GOVERNMENTS. If you use a different standard for Israel than you do for other countries, your criticism is not legitimate and one can reasonably infer that you are anti-Semitic.


I might add that the frequency with which you criticise other states as compared to Israel is a reasonable indicator of the standards you are applying.


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2010 - 2:15AM #57
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,210

What is the difference between being anti-America or anti-Americans, and anti-Jew or anti-Semitic: for one you go to prison for the other you don't.


So please don't cry: world hates us. If justice were the same and equal for everybody, this would not be happening. And this will not stop until we are all equal*


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2010 - 2:37AM #58
habesor
Posts: 5,633

Dos,


Being anti-American is often quite similar to being anti-Jew. When the anti-American has no factual basis for his opinions, sees America as the source of all evil in the world and holds the USA to a standard of behavior far higher than any other state simply to be able always to condemn American actions while white washing those of other states, then there is no real difference between being anti-American and being a classical anti-Semite.


As for punishment for being anti-American, as long as it remains on the intellectual or anti-intellectual level, there is no punishment. But when anti-American attitudes lead to political, economic or military actions, then the USA is quite capable of dishing out harsh responses that are costly to its detractors. The Jews for a couple of thousand years have not been able to react similarly toward anti-Semites. With the establishment of the Jewish state, anti-Semites cannot engage in political, economic or violent actions against Jews with an assured expectation that there will be no penalty to pay. I can understand why many anti-Semites are disturbed by the presence of a Jewish state today.


Habesor


Editing was done ONLY to reduce line spacing. NO content was removed or changed. 

Moderated by rangerken on Jun 29, 2010 - 09:57AM
Habesor
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2010 - 10:00AM #59
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

You make a very good point Hab. Both Israel and the US have in common that if either is attacked, both have the ability to counterattck and do so in a powerful and intimidating manner. Sure, the US is stronger, but Israel's enemies know that the time when Jews were helpless victims is long past...and that is a GOOD thing!


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2010 - 11:01AM #60
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,333

Jun 28, 2010 -- 8:16PM, rangerken wrote:


Rocket, being opposed to Israel doesn't make one anti-semetic. Anti-semetism means being anti Jew. Many Israeli supporters throw the anti-semetic charge at anyone who is critical of Israel and that just isn't accurate or fair.


 


Ken




 


Ken


Being opposed to an act or action of the government of Israel, provided one judges those acts by the same standard as one judges all other countries, does not make one an anti-semite.


Being opposed to the State of Israel does make one anti-semetic. Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish. Those who would deny the right of Jews to their homeland are by definition  anti-semetic. There is no question or debate on this matter.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 6 of 12  •  Prev 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 12 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook