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Switch to Forum Live View Stop the hypocrisy about Israel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 2:51PM #1
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

This was a wonderful piece from a CNN contributor. 


Stop the hypocrisy about Israel


New York (CNN) -- Enjoy hypocrisy? This past weekend you could  glut the appetite.


On Monday, Israeli ships stopped a flotilla  carrying materials that could be used for war, including cement that  Israel maintained could be used to build bunkers, to Hamas-ruled Gaza.  The crew of one boat resisted violently, triggering a firefight in which  nine people were killed, most of them Turkish nationals.


Turkey  is protesting vigorously. But, question: Turkey is a NATO ally, an  applicant to the European Union. What is it doing allowing its nationals  to smuggle cement that could build bunkers? Especially when those  nationals belong to a group, the Turkish IHH (Insani Yardim Vakfi) that  Israel has designated a terrorist organization?


The flotilla  departed from Turkish-occupied northern Cyprus. Turkey's occupation of  half of Cyprus is deemed illegal by the European Union and the United  Nations. If the government of Turkey feels so strongly about ending  disputed occupations, why does it not start with the disputed occupation  it is operating itself?


The flotilla followed a breathtaking  Friday at the United Nations. The 189 signatories of the Nuclear  Proliferation Treaty agreed on a final list of resolutions for a safer  world. The nuclear threat from Iran? Unmentioned. Instead, the NPT  resolution targeted -- what a surprise -- Israel....


_____


Read the rest of the piece here:


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 3:11PM #2
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Please define "materials that could be used in war."


Do you mean food, medical supplies, clothing, sanitation equipment?


Armies, being composed of humans, DO use all of those things.  Of course, so do all of us.


Heck, if THAT is the criteria, better shut off all oxygen to Gaxa.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
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Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 5:00PM #3
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 1, 2010 -- 3:11PM, Christianlib wrote:


... shut off all oxygen to Gaxa.



You know, there's a certain difference between air that could breathe a terrorist, and - I quote - "cement that could build bunkers". Maybe somebody else can explain this to you...


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JAstor, I agree with the article's main message, yes, there is hypocrisy in many stances critical of Israel. The examples mentioned are completely valid.


So what? Does this mean that valid criticism should be dismissed as well?


Iran and Turkey have their own credibility problems, certainly.


It's nonetheless a pity that Israel has one, too.

tl;dr
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 11:28PM #4
habesor
Posts: 5,612

Just for your information, Israel allows food, clothing, medical supplies and cement into Gaza at a rate of about 2000 tons per day. The restriction on the supply of cement is that it goes to specific construction projects supervised by UN and other legitimate aid organizations. These organizations do face the problem of Hamas theft of the cement and other humanitarian supplies but at least they have taken on official responsibility to see that the the dual purpose aid is used for peaceful purposes rather than for making war.  The "Peace" activists on these ships that Israel intercepts have the goal of increasing Hamas military capability rather than helping the innocent civilians of Gaza. 


Habesor

Habesor
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2010 - 2:00AM #5
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 1, 2010 -- 11:28PM, habesor wrote:


The "Peace" activists on these ships that Israel intercepts have the goal of increasing Hamas military capability rather than helping the innocent civilians of Gaza. 



This is logically invalid reasoning.


Any action serves multiple goals, and which of those (or maybe a completely different one) an actor actually has or pursues cannot be unequivocally told by observing the action.


I would propose to phrase the sentence this way: The "Peace" activists on these ships that Israel intercepts serve the  goal of increasing Hamas military capability ...

tl;dr
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2010 - 9:49AM #6
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Jun 1, 2010 -- 5:00PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 1, 2010 -- 3:11PM, Christianlib wrote:


... shut off all oxygen to Gaxa.



You know, there's a certain difference between air that could breathe a terrorist, and - I quote - "cement that could build bunkers". Maybe somebody else can explain this to you...


-


JAstor, I agree with the article's main message, yes, there is hypocrisy in many stances critical of Israel. The examples mentioned are completely valid.


So what? Does this mean that valid criticism should be dismissed as well?


Iran and Turkey have their own credibility problems, certainly.


It's nonetheless a pity that Israel has one, too.





Good point, Charikleia. And coming from someone like you I respect it. The problem is that, it seems to me, that most of the time it does not come from people like you. The majority of the time it comes from people with an agenda and who are the worst violators of the things they accuse Israel of. That leaves a person like me with a dilemma. Do I distinguish between criticisms or do I lump all criticism together since the effect will be to give fuel to the fire of those hypocrites with an agenda?


I'll give you an example from my professional life. I used to teach special ed kids. One kid in my class was always getting picked on. To a degree it was his fault. He really lacked social skills. For that and other reasons he was regularly picked on, especially by the class bully who would often conscript others in the class to harass this kid. One day the kid really did something wrong and the bully came to me and asked -- or rather demanded from me -- that the kid be criticized the way he was criticized. (Critisized or punished is not really the same; he wanted me to do something publicly.) It was a real dilemma. I had been talking to the kid to try to help him understand his social deficiencies. If I criticized him the way this bully wanted me to criticize him the bully would use it in future attempts at agitation. Repeated attempts at agitation. I realized that I could not do what the bully did. And the bully was very upset with me (luckily we had a good relationship otherwise). But I think I did what was right by deflecting the criticism in this case.


(As an aside, you may be wondering if I did anything with this kid. I continued to try to talk to him privately about his behavior and how, at times, he may be causing his own trouble. One final note on this story: At a different time another bully had this kid in a vicious headlock and I was able to get the bully to let go. What did the victim say to me as he was released? "Stay away from me, you dirty Jew!")

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2010 - 11:19AM #7
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Jun 1, 2010 -- 5:00PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 1, 2010 -- 3:11PM, Christianlib wrote:


... shut off all oxygen to Gaxa.



You know, there's a certain difference between air that could breathe a terrorist, and - I quote - "cement that could build bunkers". Maybe somebody else can explain this to you...


-


JAstor, I agree with the article's main message, yes, there is hypocrisy in many stances critical of Israel. The examples mentioned are completely valid.


So what? Does this mean that valid criticism should be dismissed as well?


Iran and Turkey have their own credibility problems, certainly.


It's nonetheless a pity that Israel has one, too.





WOW! NEWS! Cement can build bunkers.  And roads. And houses. And water treatment plants. It's simply a basic building material.  And the insistance that it is a WAR material IS as ridiculous as my satirical, hyperbolic statement about the air.


You guys need to take YOUR OWN blinders off.


AND, if I want to follow your logic, what if they DO use it to build bunkers to protect children and aged from Israeli rockets and bombs?  Huh? Is protecting Palestinian children now an "act of war?"

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2010 - 11:52AM #8
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Jun 2, 2010 -- 11:19AM, Christianlib wrote:


Jun 1, 2010 -- 5:00PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 1, 2010 -- 3:11PM, Christianlib wrote:


... shut off all oxygen to Gaxa.



You know, there's a certain difference between air that could breathe a terrorist, and - I quote - "cement that could build bunkers". Maybe somebody else can explain this to you...


-


JAstor, I agree with the article's main message, yes, there is hypocrisy in many stances critical of Israel. The examples mentioned are completely valid.


So what? Does this mean that valid criticism should be dismissed as well?


Iran and Turkey have their own credibility problems, certainly.


It's nonetheless a pity that Israel has one, too.





WOW! NEWS! Cement can build bunkers.  And roads. And houses. And water treatment plants. It's simply a basic building material.  And the insistance that it is a WAR material IS as ridiculous as my satirical, hyperbolic statement about the air.


You guys need to take YOUR OWN blinders off.


AND, if I want to follow your logic, what if they DO use it to build bunkers to protect children and aged from Israeli rockets and bombs?  Huh? Is protecting Palestinian children now an "act of war?"





I'm not speaking to you CL, because your mind is preset. However, as Cast Lead proved, they will use them for basements in mosques and residential buildings to stock missiles and other weapons. That's the main worry. Of course, most people who do not have their minds made up already figured that out. Why am I writing this then? I dont' know. Good question.

Moderated by Merope on Jun 05, 2010 - 04:27AM
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2010 - 11:56AM #9
habesor
Posts: 5,612

Christianlib,


Cement certainly is a building material that can be used for war or peace. That is why the Israelis insist that all cement that is shipped into Gaza is done so under the auspicies of international aid agencies for specified projects. Otherwise, it is liable to be seized by the Hamas for the construction of bunkers, not to shelter Gaza's women and children, but to shelter Hamas leaders, their families and for military bunkers. Now it may be difficult for you to come to grips with that sort of thing but that is the general picture described to me by Gazans who are not excited by the idea of becoming shaheeds in a war with Israel. And though I have done no systematic research, I have the distinct feeling that the lack of attractiveness of becoming a shaheed is an opinion held by the majority of the Gaza population. 


Habesor

Habesor
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2010 - 11:58AM #10
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Your point is ridiculously paranoid, and stretched beyond all logic and reason.


Let me give you a simple example.  When I was in Vietnam, a PRIZED commodity for GIs was pre-sweetened Kool Aid.  We had to put so much Iodine in the water in our canteens fo purify it, that it tasted like linament.   So, we would put in a packet of the pre-sweetened Kool Aid (artificial sweetener meant no sugar to grow nasty stuff in the canteen) to make it palatable.


So, now, is Kool Aid a "material of war"?

Moderated by Merope on Jun 05, 2010 - 04:28AM
Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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