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Switch to Forum Live View Gunfire at Kent State;40 years later
4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 10:05AM #1
sydneymoon
Posts: 3,680

"Gunfire at Kent State echoes down the decades"


This is a poignant account by Ken Garfield on the May 4th tragedy:


www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/05/02/141...


It was undetermined if orders were given to shoot, I still wonder how simultaneous shots could be delivered w/out such orders. Charges were dismissed. 


From another article:


"John Cleary, 59, an architect who lives in Gibsonia, will be in Kent on Tuesday, remembering the day he was shot while walking to class.


Cleary watched the noon rally for a while. Thousands of students were there. Many, like Cleary, were on the way to class.


He watched as Guardsmen climbed up a hill, knelt and aimed their weapons at students in a parking lot. Then the Guardsmen began to retreat.


"That's when they suddenly turned and fired," Cleary said. "I heard the gunshots, but I would say almost simultaneously I got hit. It was like getting hit in the chest with a sledgehammer."


He awoke in the hospital, where he would spend two weeks. It took him two months to recover from his chest wound, and he still carries bullet fragments in his body.


Cleary said he's certain the shooting was not random. He believes there was an order or arrangement to fire.


"It seemed to be something that happened in unison," he said.


He doesn't blame the soldiers.


"It was the powers that be that really set thing into motion. The National Guard were just their pawns," Cleary said."


www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/...

Margaret Mead: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 2:42PM #2
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

The protesters at Kent State were not peaceful.  They had already set the ROTC building afire.  That was why the National Guard had been called in.  Protesters were approaching the National Guard screaming obsenities and throwing rockings and bottles at them.  Individual guardsmen testified they were afraid for their lives.  Nobody ordered the firing.  Somebody fired and the rest of the Guard reacted.


This National Guard unit was neither trained nor equipped for riot control.  The fact they had locked and loaded was a boneheaded move as well.


Source:  "THE MAY 4 SHOOTINGS AT KENT STATE UNIVERSITY: THE SEARCH
FOR HISTORICAL ACCURACY"
on the Kent State Univeristy website

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 4:09PM #3
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

The protesters at Kent State were not peaceful.  T


 


Bull Shit.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 4:21PM #4
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Here's a list of the UNARMED students shot and killed or injured by the troops at Kent State.  Note: none were "setting fire" to the ROTC building, or threatening the troops.


Killed (and approximate distance from the National Guard):

  • Jeffrey Glenn Miller; 20, 265 ft (81 m) shot through the  mouth - killed instantly
  • Allison B. Krause; 19, 343 ft (105 m) fatal left chest  wound - died later that day
  • William Knox Schroeder; 19, 382 ft  (116 m) fatal chest wound - died almost an hour later in hospital while  waiting for surgery
  • Sandra Lee Scheuer; 20, 390 ft (120 m) fatal neck wound -  died a few minutes later from loss of blood

Wounded (and approximate distance from the National Guard):

  • Joseph Lewis Jr. 71 ft (22 m); hit twice in the right abdomen and  left lower leg
  • John R. Cleary 110 ft (34 m); upper left chest wound
  • Thomas Mark Grace 225 ft (69 m); struck in left ankle
  • Alan Michael Canfora 225 ft (69 m); hit in his right wrist
  • Dean R. Kahler 300 ft (91 m); back wound fracturing the vertebrae -  permanently paralyzed from the chest down
  • Douglas Alan Wrentmore 329 ft (100 m); hit in his right knee
  • James Dennis Russell 375 ft (114 m); hit in his right thigh from a  bullet and in the right forehead by birdshot - both wounds minor (died  2007)
  • Robert Follis Stamps 495 ft (151 m); hit in his right buttock (died  June 11, 2008)
  • Donald Scott MacKenzie 750 ft (230 m); neck wound

 


 


Now, I realize, in the rightwingoverse, peacefully protesting a government policy or action (In this case, Nixon's illegal war in Cambodia) is and should be a Capital Offense, worthy of summary execution in the streets--unless the president is black, and the protestors teabaggers--but that is NOT the law, or the general practice, in the US.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 4:52PM #5
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

May 2, 2010 -- 4:09PM, Christianlib wrote:


The protesters at Kent State were not peaceful.  T


 


Bull Shit.




Bull shirt right back at you.


Perhaps you need to read the historical accounts.


Do "peaceful" protesters burn down buildings?


Do "peaceful" protesters throw rocks and bottles?


Also, don't believe that I ever called the shooting "justified."  Already stated the National Guard was NOT trained or equipped for riot control.  Evidence is that one of the guardsmen panicked and fired his weapon, and his equally frightened mates let fly.  


Another fact is that many of those shot weren't even part of the protest.


This was a tragic day in Ohio, but it wasn't a case of a malicious National Guard taking aim at a peaceful demonstration, but rather a frightened and untrained gaggle of guardsmen fired on a rock throwing mob advancing on them.  Such is the record.


-- Kent State Scrapbook


-- Famous Pictures - Kent State Shooting


-- CNN.com - Kent State Shooting Remembered


 

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 6:11PM #6
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

I remember the incident quite well, I was a graduate student at a different university at the time and student unrest was rampant. The leaders of the protests were anything but peaceful and some groups were infiltrated with individuals who were not students.


From my personal experience, a group of protestors tried to take over the Physics Building. There were members of the local media urging some students, who were standing by peacefully, to get involved in the take-over.


No one blamed the Guardsmen for the Kent State incident; they were a group of scared kids facing an angry mob. The imbeciles who ordered the rifles to be loaded with live ammunition were the guilty ones.

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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 6:49PM #7
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

I'll make this repost brief.


Yeah, the FBI "infiltrated" the movement and fomented violence--it was called Operation COINTELPRO.


And, many people in grad school, and having other deferrments at the time, who "supported" a war they wouldn't fight, REALLY pissed off we soldiers.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
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Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 7:00PM #8
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

... the FBI "infiltrated" the movement and fomented violence--it was called Operation COINTELPRO..



So what evidence do you have that "FBI provocteurs" were responsible for the rock throwing and the burning of the ROTC building?


 


...And, many people in grad school, and having other deferrments at the time, who "supported" a war they wouldn't fight, REALLY pissed off we soldiers...



Probably.  What does this have to do with the topic?

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 7:06PM #9
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

If you read the papers of the time, you'll find all you need to know about COINTELPRO.  I don't feel like doing your homework for you.


As for why the other is "important" to the topic.  Well, it is as germane as the spurious attacks on anti-war people by the righties.


 


Most VN vets I know have much more respect for those who tried to get us home than for the chickenhawks sitting safe in grad school, self-righteously intoning on the "rightness" of the war.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  May 02, 2010 - 7:11PM #10
rabello
Posts: 21,714

The anti war movement and campus demonstrations were causing a bit of a problem for old Trickie Dick, with his "secret" plan to end the Viet Nam war (remember that?), which apparently involved bombing Cambodia, so although we'll never have a smoking gun to look at, there's every reason to believe the plan, if not the order, came from the WH.    Maybe that was the "secret" plan -- to shut down a peace movement, and if current events are any measure, tell it to "go shopping" as the CiC did his thing.


I wouldn't go so far as to say "no one" blamed the Guardsmen.   I remember the adults around me in disbelief, asking how American citizens could possible fire at unarmed American citizens just because of some "order" that came from somewhere.


I can see characterizing 18 to 26 year old draftees as "scared kids" but not so sure if that would apply to the National Guard, who were, of all ages, and the ones with the military-grade weapons.

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