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Switch to Forum Live View Even Some Educated Pro-Israeli Americans Spread Hate Inside Israel/Palestine
4 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2010 - 6:36PM #111
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 10, 2010 -- 5:47PM, Pareille wrote:


If I'm recalling correctly, you live in a country which makes free inquiry illegal on this topic ...



What is illegal in Germany is "holocaust denial", which is a symbol for National Socialism. It is banned right along with the swastika flag and the NSDAP party, for reasons peculiar to German history. I have had a grand uncle, ex-member of the NSDAP, who was such a holocaust denier. The husband of my first flute teacher was one, too.


It is quite off target to label this ban on Nazi symbols "illegality of free inquiry".



Even so, the one thing which will not cut it in any debate with mature people, is efforts to sting them by using phrases such as "posing as an innocently disinterested researcher."  People are not entirely stupid and they see through an effort like that to shut off discourse.



I don't understand your complaint. Could you elaborate what you mean here?


I do not think creationism deserves even being addressed by serious researchers, as much as the creationists may want to be taken serious. It is not "mature" to take them serious and debate them, it is a waste of time better spent productively.


As I see it, the same holds for holocaust denial.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2010 - 9:27PM #112
Pareille
Posts: 191

Apr 10, 2010 -- 6:36PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Apr 10, 2010 -- 5:47PM, Pareille wrote:


If I'm recalling correctly, you live in a country which makes free inquiry illegal on this topic ...



What is illegal in Germany is "holocaust denial", which is a symbol for National Socialism. It is banned right along with the swastika flag and the NSDAP party, for reasons peculiar to German history. I have had a grand uncle, ex-member of the NSDAP, who was such a holocaust denier. The husband of my first flute teacher was one, too.


It is quite off target to label this ban on Nazi symbols "illegality of free inquiry".



Even so, the one thing which will not cut it in any debate with mature people, is efforts to sting them by using phrases such as "posing as an innocently disinterested researcher."  People are not entirely stupid and they see through an effort like that to shut off discourse.



I don't understand your complaint. Could you elaborate what you mean here?


I do not think creationism deserves even being addressed by serious researchers, as much as the creationists may want to be taken serious. It is not "mature" to take them serious and debate them, it is a waste of time better spent productively.


As I see it, the same holds for holocaust denial.




 


Thanks for your viewpoint; unfortunately I do not have time to argue points like those.  


I could scarcely be less interested right now in what terms Germany employs to criminalize the exchange of ideas about this topic.  


I am not a creationist so I don't think I'll probably spend much energy on that one, particularly here.


As far as a complaint, I don't remember bringing a complaint to you.  What I wrote to you - after seeing your comment to me - is that efforts to sting people into silence with insinuations do not work, at least in a country with relatively free speech like mine still has (maybe it could work with some people on second thought but that would be because they were very susceptible to peer pressure).


I have ample material here to read later tonight which pertains to the conversation, believe me I don't ordinarily do this much reading on any given night!  So begging your pardon I will probably confine my attentions to Leah and/or browbeaten, in this thread.


 


 


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4 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2010 - 10:10PM #113
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Are there words within the Torah/the Christian Old Testament that are the basis or source of some of this hate being spread by American supporters of Israel within Israel/Palestine? Stated another way, is there a Biblical basis, as some interpret the Bible, for this hate?


More specifically, are there verses in Deuteronomy and other books such as Joshua that literally read as God then commanding ethnic cleansing of the land? I cannot help but see similarities between acts of the Israelites then and acts of Israel today against the Palestinians in the land?  


Here is a link to an article written by a Christian priest addressing these questions further: 


www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_bibl...


Here are some of the verses I am referring to:


Deuteronomy 2:32; 3:1-11; 7:1-6; 9:1-3


"Deuteronomy 3


Defeat of Og King of Bashan

 1 Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon."


 3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed e]" class="footnote">[e] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying f]" class="footnote">[f] every city—men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.


 8 So at that time we took from these two kings of the Amorites the territory east of the Jordan, from the Arnon Gorge as far as Mount Hermon. 9 (Hermon is called Sirion by the Sidonians; the Amorites call it Senir.) 10 We took all the towns on the plateau, and all Gilead, and all Bashan as far as Salecah and Edrei, towns of Og's kingdom in Bashan. 11 (Only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaites. His bed g]" class="footnote">[g] was made of iron and was more than thirteen feet long and six feet wide. h]" class="footnote">[h] It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)"


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deu...


As to my own reading of verses in Deuteronomy and elsewhere like the verses above, the character of God revealed by a literal reading of these verses is simply not consistent with the character of God, as revealed by Jesus. So, I reject these events as occuring, as stated.  I read everything within the OT with caution, and read it primarily as background to Jesus coming, sometimes having to outright conclude verses are inaccurate from a historical standpoint. The points made by the author of the article I provided a link to raise a question as to the accuracy of much in the account of the OT of the Israelites exodus from Egypt and their settlement of the land.   Archaeology findings are not backing up these accounts, as the article points out in excerpts beow:.  


"Moreover, there is virtual unanimity among scholars that the model of tribal conquest as narrated in Joshua 1-12 is unsustainable. Leaving aside the witness of the Bible, we have no evidence that there was a Hebrew  conquest.  Evidence from archaeology, extra-biblical literature, etc., points in an altogether different direction from that propounded by Joshua 1-12. It suggests a sequence of periods marked by a gradual and peaceful coalescence of disparate peoples into a group of highland dwellers whose achievement of a new sense of unity culminated only with the entry of the Assyrian administration. The Iron I Age settlements on the central hills of Palestine, from which the later kingdom of Israel developed, reflect continuity with Canaanite culture, and repudiate any ethnic distinction between “Canaanites” and “Israelites.” Israel's origins, then, were within Canaan, not outside it. There was neither invasion from outside, nor revolution within."


www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_bibl...


Sherri

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2010 - 11:21PM #114
Pareille
Posts: 191

 


 


LeahOne,


I have now read your two links, Helium and aish; they do address Lilo's contention about the railways.


A question occurs to me about the two teenagers in the second one:  when escaping from the concentration camp into the woods, how they could have managed to have gasoline and tobacco with them to confound the dogs. IOW, how would they have possibly obtained gasoline and tobacco while doing their customary intense labor under the watchful eye of the nazi guards.  The article states that they used gasoline and tobacco in such a way.


But assuming they did ...they mentioned Jews going to the ovens in their comment, but does the report talk about industrial-style mass murder in gas chambers ? Because anyone who died in the camp would be cremated as time and space allowed ("go to the oven"), whether they died of poor nutrition, overwork,  or illness. I don't know because the aish article didn't say whether their report specified killings in gas chambers or not.  Guess I could just put their names in the search engine and look for that.


I found something in the comments beneath the article:


"Kastner did deliberately mislead the masses with regard to information about the true destination of the deportations. This was in keeping with a viewpoint espoused by some Zionists, that were intent on saving Zionist leaders while abandoning the masses to their fate."


I am surprised to find that in there.  That is one of the principal themes in the revisionist literature I have read thus far ...that the ordinary Jewish people were sold right down the river by the Jewish Agency.  


 


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4 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2010 - 2:14AM #115
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,155

Sherry, thank you for the post and links of excellent study. We all have problem with OT and how God is portrayed there. It is good to ask questions and seek answers. God is either good and compassionate or He is on the path of destruction. For Christians and Jews this is very difficult. There has to be some higher wisdom or code as someone termed it.


Being ancient text many things were written in a representative or symbolic sense or in style of correspondences. Not many today would accept that the world was created in six days. So  within the literal sense of OT there is a deeper, spiritual sense speaking of the state of man and his regeneration. And if we can not accept six days literally, we need to consider the rest of the books of the OT.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2010 - 2:28AM #116
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 10, 2010 -- 9:27PM, Pareille wrote:


So begging your pardon I will probably confine my attentions to Leah and/or browbeaten, in this thread.



Fine with me. No need to get the bigger picture, of course.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2010 - 3:26AM #117
Pareille
Posts: 191

 


 


Apr 10, 2010 -- 12:11AM, LeahOne wrote:


[after showing me by the use of bold lettering which statements you feel are distortions on the vho website]


>>>>>And that is only from the first section!  Just because this site doesn't indulge in overt Jew-baiting, does NOT mean it is free of anti-Jewish bias.  Nor does it mean that this site is necessarily more truthful than the many more 'colorful' sites with very similar 'factual' content.


Well, your challenge to me was that I would not find a single website on which issue is taken with the gas chambers, which was not also filled with slurs against Jews, and neo-nazi ideology, and things along those lines.


The denial of Nazi plans to exterminate the Jews and other groups remains.


I didn't notice a denial of that on the site. Probably because contrary to what you seem to believe, not everyone who has questions or challenges about the gas chambers ...thinks Hitler was a sane person.  


I don't.  I have heard about some of his ideas regarding the Master race and they're very 'out there'.  It is not difficult for me to believe that his/their ultimate goal was to either pare Jews down into a manageable servile class or phase them off the earth altogether, especially after a certain point in his career.  


The only controversy with which we need be occupied is murder in gas chambers.  That is the only part which would be worth the time and energy to examine, imo.     


Now I read your three other links; I had thought, going in, that they would be about those statements on the vho website which you regarded as distortions.


What they WERE about was interesting but inventories like that are typically taken when people seriously consider a position which is unpopular at the time. I was intrigued that the first one wanted to include Chomsky in the set of psyches being appraised for 'genocide denial'; I had thought his defense of Faurisson was somewhat broad for that.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2010 - 4:20AM #118
Pareille
Posts: 191

 


You're welcome, dostojevsky.  Sorry, didn't see what you wrote, before.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2010 - 9:15AM #119
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

For once, Sherri and I agree -- statements found within the Hebrew scriptures have indeed been used to justify or even demand hatred. But all sacred scriptures contain statements that justify or demand hatred. Does ANYONE seriously think that the Greek scriptures or the Koran are free of such statements?


I sneer at anyone who tries to approach the tragic situation in the Middle East or indeed almost anywhere in the world by quoting from some set of sacred scriptures and insisting that this is the literal answer, direct from God.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2010 - 12:32PM #120
LeahOne
Posts: 16,086

"Kastner did deliberately mislead the masses with regard to information about the true destination of the deportations. This was in keeping with a viewpoint espoused by some Zionists, that were intent on saving Zionist leaders while abandoning the masses to their fate."


 


I am surprised to find that in there.  That is one of the principal themes in the revisionist literature I have read thus far ...that the ordinary Jewish people were sold right down the river by the Jewish Agency.  


Premature acceptance of the revisionist version - one needs to decide if Kastner's behavior was representative of the JA or an aberration.  From other reading, I have decided it was an aberration. 


The 'thesis' of the revisionists is consistent with an anti-semitic view in that it portrays 'Zionists' as cynically and deliberately promoting the Nazi oppression of Jews  *for the purpose of inciting the Jews to go to Israel* .


As anyone who actually knows about the Jewish communities in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe  knows - there was no need for such an impetus.

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