Post Reply
Page 1 of 16  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 16 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Even Some Educated Pro-Israeli Americans Spread Hate Inside Israel/Palestine
4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2010 - 10:44PM #1
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Has anyone ever attempted to address the extent to which educated American supporters of Israel spread hate and actively contribute to the violence in Israel/Palestine? The first example that comes to my mind is Dr Baruch Goldstein, the perpetrator of the Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre, an American and Israeli:


"Baruch Kappel Goldstein (Hebrew: ברוך גולדשטיין‎; December 9, 1956 – February 25, 1994) was an American-born Jewish Israeli physician who perpetrated the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in the city of Hebron, killing 29 Muslims at prayer there and wounding another 150."


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein


But Dr Goldsten is only one of many educated American supporters of Israel who have actively spread hate in this conflict. I just read of another, an American advocating population control of Gazans, active steps to prevent babies from being born inside Gaza, a man essentially advocating genocide in a speech before an Israeli audience in the the Herzliya conference, an influential annual gathering of Israel's political and military establishment.


"Harvard Fellow calls for genocidal measure to curb Palestinian births
Report, The Electronic Intifada, 22 February 2010

A fellow at Harvard University's Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, Martin Kramer, has called for "the West" to take measures to curb the births of Palestinians, a proposal that appears to meet the international legal definition of a call for genocide.

Kramer, who is also a fellow at the influential Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP), made the call early this month in a speech at Israel's Herzliya conference, a video of which is posted on his blog ("Superfluous young men," 7 February 2010).

In the speech Kramer rejected common views that Islamist "radicalization" is caused by US policies such as support for Israel, or propping up despotic dictatorships, and stated that it was inherent in the demography of Muslim societies such as Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip. Too many children, he argued, leads to too many "superfluous young men" who then become violent radicals.

Kramer proposed that the number of Palestinian children born in the Gaza Strip should be deliberately curbed, and alleged that this would "happen faster if the West stops providing pro-natal subsidies to Palestinians with refugee status."

Due to the Israeli blockade, the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are now dependent on UN food aid. Neither the UN, nor any other agencies, provide Palestinians with specifically "pro-natal subsidies." Kramer appeared to be equating any humanitarian assistance at all with inducement for Palestinians to reproduce.

He added, "Israel's present sanctions on Gaza have a political aim -- undermine the Hamas regime -- but if they also break Gaza's runaway population growth, and there is some evidence that they have, that might begin to crack the culture of martyrdom which demands a constant supply of superfluous young men." This, he claimed, would be treating the issue of Islamic radicalization "at its root.""


electronicintifada.net/v2/article11091.s...


Wow, educated American supporters of Israel arguing genocide is an appropriate weapon to use against civilians in Gaza.


I don't think you can get much more hateful than this. 

Here are some of Kramer's own chilling words, spoken in his speech in Israel:


"Now eventually, this will happen among the Palestinians too, but it will happen faster if the West stops providing pro-natal subsidies for Palestinians with refugee status. Those subsidies are one reason why, in the ten years from 1997 to 2007, Gaza’s population grew by an astonishing 40 percent. At that rate, Gaza’s population will double by 2030, to three million. Israel’s present sanctions on Gaza have a political aim—undermine the Hamas regime—but if they also break Gaza’s runaway population growth—and there is some evidence that they have—that might begin to crack the culture of martyrdom which demands a constant supply of superfluous young men. That is rising to the real challenge of radical indoctrination, and treating it at its root."




Personally, I do not see why education necessarily shields one from doing evil. We often use our education to justify or excuse or plan our own evil, it seems to me. I entitle my thread the title it was given in response to another poster's thread entitled "Even Some Educated Arabs Spread Hate."


This so-called fellow human being and fellow American named Martin Kramer seems to be congratulating Israel on already engaging in genocidal acts in Gaza, and I think there is some truth to those comments, when we look at things like the infant mortality rate and the significant numbers of preventable deaths that occur in Gaza, statistics that Israel's policies in Gaza substantially contribute to.


Sherri
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2010 - 11:49PM #2
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

Sherri, I'm an 'educated American', and I support Israel and wish only total destruction for Hamas and all that terrorist group stands for. A lot of 'educated Americans' who are neither 'zionists', nor Jewish, support Israel for many reasons, and oppose Hamas and all like them because we should always support civilized men and women over barbarians. Hamas, and those like Hamas, are the mortal enemies of the United States. Frankly, I don't understand how any woman can possibly support any radical islamist group. They all do want to force you...meaning you women ... into servitude, second class citizenship, and permanent subservience. After all, Sherri, they first say so, and second do so. So you should believe them.


We do not have to approve of all Israel does, and I do not. But compared to Hamas, or Hezbollah, or any other radical islamist group Israel is literally a beacon of morality, democracy and freedom in the middle of backward, barbarous, stagnated, oppressive, religious fanaticism.


Do keep in mind Sherri that the very obvious proof of the fact that Israel does not wish all Palestinians to be destroyed is the fact that they have not been destroyed, despite constant provocation the likes of which we Americans would never put up with.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 1:02AM #3
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Baruch Goldstein's murderous rampage was almost universally denounced and condemned throughout Israel. Has any Islamic nation responded to an act of Islamic terrorism in any way even remotely like Israel's absolute condemnation of Goldstein's acts? 

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 7:11AM #4
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,194

Apr 4, 2010 -- 1:02AM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Baruch Goldstein's murderous rampage was almost universally denounced and condemned throughout Israel.




can you offer some links for this pleaseSmile

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 8:25AM #5
KindredSai
Posts: 5,385

Do keep in mind Sherri that the very obvious proof of the fact that Israel does not wish all Palestinians to be destroyed is the fact that they have not been destroyed, despite constant provocation the likes of which we Americans would never put up with.


I don't think that's what Sherri's implying. It is evident that not all Arabs or Palestinians want Jews or Israel to be destroyed either.


What we have here, are forms of hate on both sides but my beef is with Israel.


It is quite evident that Israel nurtured the growth of Hamas in the territories with it's release of the Muslim brotherhood in Gaza and it is evident that Israel is nurturing the religious right by aiding a settler movement in the West Bank.


If you're believing the tripe that Israel wants peace, then I'm afraid you've been a victim of Pro-Israeli propaganda, the evidence points other wise.Frown

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 11:35AM #6
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Apr 4, 2010 -- 7:11AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Apr 4, 2010 -- 1:02AM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Baruch Goldstein's murderous rampage was almost universally denounced and condemned throughout Israel.




can you offer some links for this pleaseSmile




From Wikipedia's detailed account of the massacre:


Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government, the mainstream Israeli parties and the Israeli populace in general. The Kach movement, with which he was affiliated, was outlawed as a terrorist organization. The cabinet decided to confiscate the weapons of some they regarded as right-wing extremists and put them in administrative detention.


In an address to the Knesset, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin denounced Goldstein. Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other settlers he regarded as militant, declared: “You are not part of the community of Israel... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism.”


Binyamin Netanyahu, head of the Likud party declared, "This was a despicable crime. I express my unequivocal condemnation."


The Israeli government appointed a commission of inquiry headed by then president of the Supreme Court, Judge Meir Shamgar. The commission in the epilogue to its report called the massacre "a base and murderous act, in which innocent people bending in prayer to their maker were killed."


A poll of 500 Israeli adults for the International Centre for Peace in the Middle East found that 78.8% condemned the Hebron massacre while 3.6% praised Goldstein.


 


You can find the source materials cited as references in the Wikipedia entry. It is worth mentioning that the Shamgar Commission has been accused of being "anti-Palestinian." If a supposedly anti-Palestinian commission can so clearly and forcefully condemn Goldstein's actions... and 79% of the population condemned the massacre while less than 4% praised it... then I repeat my challenge to find a comparable level of official and population-wide condemnation from any Islamic nation following terrorist acts against Israel.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 11:40AM #7
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 3, 2010 -- 11:49PM, rangerken wrote:


Sherri, I'm an 'educated American', and I support Israel and wish only total destruction for Hamas and all that terrorist group stands for. A lot of 'educated Americans' who are neither 'zionists', nor Jewish, support Israel for many reasons, and oppose Hamas and all like them because we should always support civilized men and women over barbarians. Hamas, and those like Hamas, are the mortal enemies of the United States. Frankly, I don't understand how any woman can possibly support any radical islamist group. They all do want to force you...meaning you women ... into servitude, second class citizenship, and permanent subservience. After all, Sherri, they first say so, and second do so. So you should believe them.


We do not have to approve of all Israel does, and I do not. But compared to Hamas, or Hezbollah, or any other radical islamist group Israel is literally a beacon of morality, democracy and freedom in the middle of backward, barbarous, stagnated, oppressive, religious fanaticism.


Do keep in mind Sherri that the very obvious proof of the fact that Israel does not wish all Palestinians to be destroyed is the fact that they have not been destroyed, despite constant provocation the likes of which we Americans would never put up with.


Ken




Well said, as usual, Ken.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 11:47AM #8
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Apr 4, 2010 -- 8:25AM, KindredSai wrote:


Do keep in mind Sherri that the very obvious proof of the fact that Israel does not wish all Palestinians to be destroyed is the fact that they have not been destroyed, despite constant provocation the likes of which we Americans would never put up with.


I don't think that's what Sherri's implying. It is evident that not all Arabs or Palestinians want Jews or Israel to be destroyed either.


What we have here, are forms of hate on both sides but my beef is with Israel.


It is quite evident that Israel nurtured the growth of Hamas in the territories with it's release of the Muslim brotherhood in Gaza and it is evident that Israel is nurturing the religious right by aiding a settler movement in the West Bank.


If you're believing the tripe that Israel wants peace, then I'm afraid you've been a victim of Pro-Israeli propaganda, the evidence points other wise.Frown




I support Israel's right to exist, even if I don't agree with every action it has taken. However, the notion that Israel wants continued warfare seems self-evidently preposterous to me.  It suggests that a tiny nation surrounded by vast populations of Muslims who have an almost unlimited supply of oil revenues at their disposal chooses to perpetuate hostility and warfare, and to keep spending an inordinate amount of its own limited resources on defense, and to keep subjecting its own citizens to terrorist attacks... all for the sake of WHAT?


 


 

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 11:54AM #9
KindredSai
Posts: 5,385

Apr 4, 2010 -- 11:47AM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Apr 4, 2010 -- 8:25AM, KindredSai wrote:


Do keep in mind Sherri that the very obvious proof of the fact that Israel does not wish all Palestinians to be destroyed is the fact that they have not been destroyed, despite constant provocation the likes of which we Americans would never put up with.


I don't think that's what Sherri's implying. It is evident that not all Arabs or Palestinians want Jews or Israel to be destroyed either.


What we have here, are forms of hate on both sides but my beef is with Israel.


It is quite evident that Israel nurtured the growth of Hamas in the territories with it's release of the Muslim brotherhood in Gaza and it is evident that Israel is nurturing the religious right by aiding a settler movement in the West Bank.


If you're believing the tripe that Israel wants peace, then I'm afraid you've been a victim of Pro-Israeli propaganda, the evidence points other wise.Frown




I support Israel's right to exist, even if I don't agree with every action it has taken. However, the notion that Israel wants continued warfare seems self-evidently preposterous to me.  It suggests that a tiny nation surrounded by vast populations of Muslims who have an almost unlimited supply of oil revenues at their disposal chooses to perpetuate hostility and warfare, and to keep spending an inordinate amount of its own limited resources on defense, and to keep subjecting its own citizens to terrorist attacks... all for the sake of WHAT?


 


 






For the sake of land of course, Israel doesn't mind a climate of extremism because it can perists with a real reason for occupation and expansionism.


Israel like Hamas does not want peace.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2010 - 12:00PM #10
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

Sherri - You seem to have missed a few key points here:


1) Dr Hawss is a world-reknown authority in the field of Egyptology - and an instantly-recognizable TV personality. As such, his word carries a certain weight beyond that of just the random  MD/PhD.


Dr. Baruch Goldstein was no such 'public figure'.....


2) Dr Hawass' words were not in any way factual or accurate:  they were indeed a paraphrase of accustions made in the notorious "Protocols of the Elders of Zion".  As the scholar and authority he is,  Dr Hawass *had to know* those words he was saying were a baeless accusation, a lie. 


 By making those statements, he was attacking 'Scientific Method' as surely as Dr Goldstein attacked innocent Muslim worshippers.  Nobody died that day from his words - but who's to say who will die due to people acting because of Hawass' words?  Whether by scorning the results of scientific exploration, or simply indulging in the Jew-murdering hate contained in those words.  I'm still waiting to see the widespread condemnation of Dr Hawass' verbal filth. 


3)  The murderous acs of Dr Goldstein were repeaedly condemned in the stongest terms by every non-whacko extremist group, pary, and individual in Israel and Jewish communities around the world.  It was made clear as could be that ONLY a few vile extremists faied to understand that hi kind of 'thought' - never mind action! - has no place in Judaismor Zionism.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 16  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 16 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook