love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it; "they rode the same wave of popular patriotism"; "British nationalism was in the air and patriotic sentiments ran high". More »
What could possibly be wrong about patriotism? Your misgivings are about the actions of the government. The patriotic response is to change the decisions or those making them. One can love one's country and hate the actions of one's government simultaneously. I do it every day.
How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
Is patriotism good or evil? Is it ethical or unethical? Is it a virtue or a vice? I'd like to know what you think and why.
Thanks in advance for the input!
- Scott
Patriotism is devotion to ones country. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as it does not take precedence over devotion to God. Where it goes wrong is when devotion to ones country is confused with devotion to God. This is the mistake made by those who insist that America is a "Christian" nation. It isn't, of course, at least not in the sense that Israel is a "Jewish" nation or Iran is an "Islamic" nation, but those who claim that it is do so in order to create the impression that ones devotion to God must take the form of devotion to America. When patriotism is equated with faith in God, the nation is elevated to a divine status, and patriotism becomes idolatry. So no, I don't believe patriotism is evil, unethical, or a vice at all, so long as it is kept in its proper perspective.
Is patriotism good or evil? Is it ethical or unethical? Is it a virtue or a vice? I'd like to know what you think and why.
Thanks in advance for the input!
- Scott
It depends on what your principles are based on. Patriotism, tribalism or any groupism divides us against them It is exclusivist. It is centered in oneself and one's group.
The best of humanity is inclusive. It encompasses and respects every human being on the same level. (every living thing, actually) No religion or superior teaching divides people into us versus them or puts one's own group above another.(which is what patriotism does).
That is true to a point (a moderate point). Societies and cultures have a right to preserve those traditions, values and norms which define them. To deny or dilute one's own identity in the name of "inclusivism" is no more admirable than genocide.
How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
patriotism is a good thing you it is truly in the spirit of love and peace but all too often it has more to do with identification with a specific group (i.e.-nation). The identification with the group has nothing to do with seeking freedom but preserving a system, a very dangerous thing and has the capacity to create much suffering. 'Patriots' often claim to be fighting for freedom but have to be careful not to be fighting for supremecy. Nazism was well-known for its nationalistic views where the individual was only seen as part of the whole and life was not valued... that is the ills that come out of striving for patriotism if it is in fact nothing more than nationalism.
Is patriotism good or evil? Is it ethical or unethical? Is it a virtue or a vice? I'd like to know what you think and why.
I think the Tao Te Ching [verse 18] says it best: "When the country falls into chaos Patriotism is born."
Patriotism can really only exist as an abstraction, and it is therefore different for each person. One person may consider it patriotic to fight against the loss of what they perceive as their country's underlying values, to prevent their country from being lost to forces of repression and control. Another person might see those very forces of control as the means to subdue unpatriotic traitors and keep their country secure. Who is the more patroitic? Depends on who you agree with.
I think some generalizations can be made about patriotism, though. It cannot exist without an "us versus them" mentality. This mentality of separation and struggle justifies and makes possible a wide range of behaviors that I would call evil.
Patriotism is a vanity. People claim the title of patriot so they can stand in self-righteous judgment of other people's beliefs and actions. But as I said before, the word "patriotic" has no objective meaning, so these judgments aren't based on anything more than "this is what I think, and if you don't agree with me, then you are wrong." Therefore, I would consider it a vice.
Is patriotism good or evil? Is it ethical or unethical? Is it a virtue or a vice? I'd like to know what you think and why.
Thanks in advance for the input!
- Scott
It depends on what your principles are based on. Patriotism, tribalism or any groupism divides us against them It is exclusivist. It is centered in oneself and one's group.
The best of humanity is inclusive. It encompasses and respects every human being on the same level. (every living thing, actually) No religion or superior teaching divides people into us versus them or puts one's own group above another.(which is what patriotism does).
It makes sense that you need to love your country if you are to teach your children to be good citizens. But that's only true if a love of country is necessary to being a good citizen. You stated that being a good person is not the same as being a good citizen. I wonder if that's true, than being a good citizen might not be a virtue. If one can be a good person without being a good citizen than why bother being a good citizen? Or does being a good citizen turn a good person into a better person, i.e., make that person "gooder"? And can one be a good citizen and be a bad person? That is, can an evil person be a good citizen? Conversely, can someone who is not a good citizen be a good person? (I apologize for going around in circles here, but you've really got me thinking with this good citizen angle that you've broached.)
I think most would agree that part of being either a good person or a good citizen is making a positive contribution to one's society (country?). If one is not making life better in some way for others, than it's probably going to be difficult to argue that one is good, either as a person or a citizen. But you suggest that there are further requirements of good citizenry: "understanding your country, its laws, and voting."
By the way, it has been my experience that few Americans would qualify as good citizens because so few of them have even a cursory understanding of our history or our laws. And many of those who think they have a strong knowledge of our history actually grasp only the fundamentals and the rest of what they 'know' is actually misinformation or mythology.
You ask why this is an issue for me. Befor I answer that let me say that our discussion has made it less of one for me. So, thanks for that.
Over the last decade or so I had noticed that my friends who professed the greatest patriotism were coming to conclusions about various governmental issues that were leading to actions that were clearly evil. When I questioned these friends, who are good people, about how they came to these conclusions they inevitably provided some vague and illogical argument that fundamentally depended on patriotism for its support.
I had always been very patriotic (I still get goose bumps when I hear Lee Greenwood sing God Bless the USA), but my government's immoral actions were leading me to question the morality of my patriotism. I began asking my friends to explain why patriotism should be considered a virtue. They could never provide anything approaching a reasonable answer. (Maybe I need smarter friends!!!)
In any case, you've provided sufficient food for thought. I now see that I was confusing government with country. Patriotism, as you pointed out, in moderation is okay. Extreme patriotism (let's call it chauvinism, jingoism, or xenophobia) will lead to evil outcomes.
I do love this country, the beauty, the cultures, the diversity, the hope it inspires, and the individuals who comprise it. I do not like our government or the American people. It's a contradiction, I know: I love individual Americans (regardless of their politics or religion, I've truly only met two or three in 58 years that I didn't like) but I dislike the American people as a whole.
Well, there you have it. Thanks, Justme, for helping me sort this out.
Probably one does not have to be patriotic to be a good citizen, but I am thinking that one does need to be somewhat patriotic in order to teach their children to be good citizens, otherwise why bother? Being a good citizen is not necessarily the same as being a good person - a good citizen should be knowledgeable about their country, about the history, about the laws, and should vote when they are of age. If I were not patriotic, I doubt that I would know or care about those things, and why would I care or bother to teach those things to my children? I generally do not teach my children things that I do not care about, and I do not think that I would care about good citizenship if I were not somewhat patriotic. If I ever were to live in a different country, I would need to teach my children about that country, but I also would teach them about the USA, because I love it and would want to impart some of the culture and things that I love the most - to me that is patriotic. I know of immigrants in my area who still love their homeland and teach their children about their culture as well as about this country, and I think that is absolutely fine.
Why, if you do not mind my asking, is this an issue for you?
Justme
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." Will Rogers
"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld." St. Augustine
"Your love for God is only as great as the love you have for the person you love least." Dorothy Day
"Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." Butch Hancock
Thanks again, Justme, (I feel like I should address you as Justyou!) for responding once more. Your clarification is appreciated and helps me understand better your view on patriotism. I think most everyone would agree that being a good citizen is good. But I might question whether it is necessary to be patriotic in order to be a good citizen. I'll keep asking the question and see what kind of answers I get. In any case, thanks to you for enaging my curiosity.
