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Switch to Forum Live View Banning Christmas is Anti-Christian
5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 1:14PM #51
rabello
Posts: 20,410

Dec 9, 2009 -- 1:02PM, Erey wrote:


Different companies do things differently. Some companies NEVER aknowledge Christmas.


But to TAKE AWAY what you have always done - even when that thing is as inocuous as a flipping christmas tree because you are worried about offending someone - then I think you are stupidly misguided.  Further, I think you are insulting to people.




Personally, I think it's commendable that people hosting a global conference on what are basically environmental issues decided to NOT kill a tree for decoration purposes.  

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 1:29PM #52
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,145

Dec 9, 2009 -- 1:02PM, Erey wrote:


Dec 9, 2009 -- 10:08AM, Tolerant Sis wrote:


When you go to a business conference around easter, do you expect that there will be bunnies and eggs around the place? When you attend a business event in December in the United States, are you so terribly terribly offended if they don't have a fully decorated tree and Rudolph winking his nose above the white board?


For crissakes, this is an international conference on global climate change.  It's not a children's holiday party.  Grow up!


 




Different companies do things differently. Some companies NEVER aknowledge Christmas.


But to TAKE AWAY what you have always done - even when that thing is as inocuous as a flipping christmas tree because you are worried about offending someone - then I think you are stupidly misguided.  Further, I think you are insulting to people.




 


'Always done'? Are you saying that in past international conferences hosted by the UN in Denmark, the Danish government festooned the conference area with religious symbols? Or is this a unique event that there is no precedence for so the Danish government decided that the grounds of the secular meeting should remain secular since the point of the meeting has nothing to do with any religious beliefs?


'Stupidly misguided'? Please, the idiocy of making a meeting regarding a possible global catastrophe into a showplace for festivities has got to be in the worst possible taste, to say the least. To do so would be much more than merely 'stupidly misguided'.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 1:31PM #53
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,145

Dec 9, 2009 -- 1:06PM, Erey wrote:


Dec 9, 2009 -- 10:09AM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


Dec 9, 2009 -- 12:05AM, Erey wrote:


Dec 8, 2009 -- 9:45PM, Amin21 wrote:


ever been colonized or dominated by a Muslim empire... some Christians from the world accept it... others feel it is thrust upon them


an Arab Christian might well feel a little relief at not having a celebration forced on him...


you don't care if Egyptians celebrate Eid because it seems like a quaint little tradition... the unfamiliar...




It is not a matter of being forced to celebrate.  Even christians are not forced to celebrate christmas.  But this bizzare idea that people are uncomfortable with any evidence that there are other religions in the world than their own.  That we must hurry, hide the evidence.  We must do things differently because just the fact that a different religion exists is a hostility. 


I am not an arab expert but I have known many in my day - muslim and christian.  The Christian arabs even though they have tension with the muslim arabs are not offended by things like Eid, prayers, etc.  And Muslim arabs have told me they enjoy taking the time to visit the christian friends and neighboors at christmas time.


When I was a student I invited muslims to my family house for christmas.  They were not offended by the whole display nor were they offended by the ham.  Their psychological well being was not going to crumble with the evidence of a different religion.  The only difference is they politely forgo the ham.  But the mere fact of ham did not freak them out. 


 


I think people, even non christians are alot stronger and more capable than our white guilt society likes to make them seem.  They can gracefully handle and even enjoy things like christmas trees, Christmas greetings, ham at the table and even the word CHRISTmas.




 


Wow, I must have imagined all of those times I had been told how filthy the pig was and that anyone who eats pork defiles their body...


 


But it seems that asking for people to act with common sense and maturity is simply too much to ask for when it comes to justifying putting religious symbols within the confines of a multi-cultural secular forum unrelated to any religious activity.


 


BTW, I knew the yearly whine about how Christmas was being destroyed by the secular government and their evil minions would start about now. How is it that this is sooooooooo predictable, year after year, yet Christmas still occurs? Perhaps those with the complaints should watch The Grinch Who Stole Christmas for a clue.




 


You know what - They might never eat a slice of ham - EVER.  But their well being does not crumble if  they see it.  Their spirituality is not threatened by the mere fact that they are in a room with a Christmas tree or a Santa Claus.


They are tougher than that. 


I am not carrying on about destroying Christmas - I am carrying on about stupid white guilt being insulting and condescending to people who might not be christian or white or whatever. 


We have such a low opiinion  of them we have to protect them from out cultural displays.




 


Are you now saying Jews or Arabs aren't white? What are they then?

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 1:36PM #54
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

FO,


They (Jews and Arabs) are HUMAN.  There is actually no such thing (as you know) as "races" within the human race.  We are ALL simply varying shades of skin color.  The concept of "race" is a social construct, usually used as an excuse for division and discrimination.


BTW, want to make a white racist livid?  Remind them that according to the latest research, it is lighter skin colors that are the recent mutation.  Dark, tropical skin looks to probably be the original tint on humans.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 2:03PM #55
smayer
Posts: 64

I think Christmas is fairly safe here in the US, being that you can go to Hobby Lobby in July and find they're putting out the Christmas stuff!


Frankly, I find we're steadily being oversaturated with Christmas.  I have a friend that put her tree up the first of November.  Really?

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 2:05PM #56
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

Can you find me a single atheist, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist who is complaining about their being no tree?


Any of the above feel insulted or offended that there is no tree?   Anyone?  Anyone at all?


Well then...


The line of reason doesn't pan out...


I think it is simply projection rather than taking the role of the other...

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 2:11PM #57
rabello
Posts: 20,410

If I understand your post, Amin21, I would agree that it isn't about "not offending" "the others" with "our" "cultural displays" due to our "white guilt" as if we're all Danish, or something, nor is it about "banning Christmas"


At the same time, the yearly lament of ruining Xmas does have it's delicious twist: a way to decry the anti-god communists gathered in Copenhagen who (supposedly) want to "ban" our western "way of life," and our "Christmas"

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 2:27PM #58
Erey
Posts: 18,403

Dec 9, 2009 -- 2:05PM, Amin21 wrote:


Can you find me a single atheist, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist who is complaining about their being no tree?


Any of the above feel insulted or offended that there is no tree?   Anyone?  Anyone at all?


Well then...


The line of reason doesn't pan out...


I think it is simply projection rather than taking the role of the other...




All I know is that I would feel pretty poorly if I went somewhere and people were scurrying around trying to remove cultural/religious items because they thought I would somehow be offended. What kind of a jerk would I be if I went around being offended by someone elses holidays or culture?


Hey, if you don't want to put up a tree this year, don't.  You can choose not to do it for environmental reasons, maybe you are sick of christmas stuff, money, whatever.  But don't act like the sensibilities of nonchristians are the reason you can't do it.  Becasue they will be offended or something.  Because basically you are saying these people are weak and incapable on some level.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 2:30PM #59
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,145

Dec 9, 2009 -- 1:36PM, Christianlib wrote:


FO,


They (Jews and Arabs) are HUMAN.  There is actually no such thing (as you know) as "races" within the human race.  We are ALL simply varying shades of skin color.  The concept of "race" is a social construct, usually used as an excuse for division and discrimination.


BTW, want to make a white racist livid?  Remind them that according to the latest research, it is lighter skin colors that are the recent mutation.  Dark, tropical skin looks to probably be the original tint on humans.




 


Roger CL, I just want to get to the bottom of this odd assertion regarding 'white guilt'. Frankly, I don't understand what they are talking about, outside of a few suburban kids.


I remember the last time I was living in California when I went to re-apply for my driver license. There was a new box that hadn't been there the last time I had a license in California, asking about my 'ethnicity'. I went to the info desk to get help with it because I didn't understand the groupings it made. The man at the counter told me to check the box that most closely approximated my heritage, so the one that seems obvious to me said 'native American' since I was born here and I am native to California. When I said that to the man, he seemed slightly annoyed and told me 'no, where your ancestors came from' so I promptly marked African American since my (and yours as well, unless you are not a homo sapien) ancestors came from Africa. He seemed even more annoyed, and told me to mark a box saying I came from the mountains of Southern Russia. Frankly, I just don't get it.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 2:31PM #60
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,034

Dec 9, 2009 -- 2:05PM, Amin21 wrote:


Can you find me a single atheist, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist who is complaining about their being no tree?


Any of the above feel insulted or offended that there is no tree?   Anyone?  Anyone at all?


Well then...


The line of reason doesn't pan out...


I think it is simply projection rather than taking the role of the other...




It sounds like Erey's point is that many organizations and people are so sure that Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. will complain that there is a tree that we're sacrificing traditions to be PC.  To that degree, I agree with her.  I don't agree that it's due to white guilt or anything like that, just an extreme attempt to be PC that may be too extreme.  I wouldn't say it's anti-Christian as while Christmas may have a special meaning for Christians, there are many non-Christians that celebrate it. 

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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