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Switch to Forum Live View Banning Christmas is Anti-Christian
5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 11:57PM #41
Erey
Posts: 18,368

Dec 8, 2009 -- 9:44PM, Amin21 wrote:


***inclusive?  Inclusive is being INCLUDED.***


yes and not having christmas stuff at an international conference says: all are included rather than... watch us celebrate...


*** We are basicaly saying you are TOO WEAK to be included.***


No non-Christian would EVER think that way about this...


***You are too crazy to be included.***


again it is a gesture of respect.


***You need to be EXcluded because you can't handle the NORMAL hospitality.***


I have no idea where you are coming up with this from...


***It is normal to have christmas trees but you can't handle it, you are too weak so we are going to keep that separated from you.  For your own good.***


I really don't get that...


again... you are not looking at it from the same perspective as a non-christian would...I see this from Muslims on non-muslims too... no big deal right?  "we don't insult their prophets... why do Christians insult ours?" kind of thing...


How about this... if you were a Hindu how would you feel about them celebrating eid in your face?  If you were in UAE you might grin and bear it... but you would consider it rude.... you might see it as just another example of Muslims shoving their proselytizing and innately internalized belief in their own "superiority" in your face..


after centuries of Muslim and Christian coloninization and the accompanying religions shoved in their faces many cultures are not particularly friendly to Christianity or Islam...




If I were in the UAE I would feel a little bizzare about the muslims scurrying around trying to remove the articles of Eid in the assumption that I would have hang ups about them being muslim or celebrating Eid.  Of course, muslim places celebrate Eid - that is the natural order of things.  I would hate someone to try and remove that for my sake. 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 12:05AM #42
Erey
Posts: 18,368

Dec 8, 2009 -- 9:45PM, Amin21 wrote:


ever been colonized or dominated by a Muslim empire... some Christians from the world accept it... others feel it is thrust upon them


an Arab Christian might well feel a little relief at not having a celebration forced on him...


you don't care if Egyptians celebrate Eid because it seems like a quaint little tradition... the unfamiliar...




It is not a matter of being forced to celebrate.  Even christians are not forced to celebrate christmas.  But this bizzare idea that people are uncomfortable with any evidence that there are other religions in the world than their own.  That we must hurry, hide the evidence.  We must do things differently because just the fact that a different religion exists is a hostility. 


I am not an arab expert but I have known many in my day - muslim and christian.  The Christian arabs even though they have tension with the muslim arabs are not offended by things like Eid, prayers, etc.  And Muslim arabs have told me they enjoy taking the time to visit the christian friends and neighboors at christmas time.


When I was a student I invited muslims to my family house for christmas.  They were not offended by the whole display nor were they offended by the ham.  Their psychological well being was not going to crumble with the evidence of a different religion.  The only difference is they politely forgo the ham.  But the mere fact of ham did not freak them out. 


 


I think people, even non christians are alot stronger and more capable than our white guilt society likes to make them seem.  They can gracefully handle and even enjoy things like christmas trees, Christmas greetings, ham at the table and even the word CHRISTmas.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 10:08AM #43
Tolerant Sis
Posts: 4,201

When you go to a business conference around easter, do you expect that there will be bunnies and eggs around the place? When you attend a business event in December in the United States, are you so terribly terribly offended if they don't have a fully decorated tree and Rudolph winking his nose above the white board?


For crissakes, this is an international conference on global climate change.  It's not a children's holiday party.  Grow up!


 

First amendment fan since 1793.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 10:09AM #44
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,109

Dec 9, 2009 -- 12:05AM, Erey wrote:


Dec 8, 2009 -- 9:45PM, Amin21 wrote:


ever been colonized or dominated by a Muslim empire... some Christians from the world accept it... others feel it is thrust upon them


an Arab Christian might well feel a little relief at not having a celebration forced on him...


you don't care if Egyptians celebrate Eid because it seems like a quaint little tradition... the unfamiliar...




It is not a matter of being forced to celebrate.  Even christians are not forced to celebrate christmas.  But this bizzare idea that people are uncomfortable with any evidence that there are other religions in the world than their own.  That we must hurry, hide the evidence.  We must do things differently because just the fact that a different religion exists is a hostility. 


I am not an arab expert but I have known many in my day - muslim and christian.  The Christian arabs even though they have tension with the muslim arabs are not offended by things like Eid, prayers, etc.  And Muslim arabs have told me they enjoy taking the time to visit the christian friends and neighboors at christmas time.


When I was a student I invited muslims to my family house for christmas.  They were not offended by the whole display nor were they offended by the ham.  Their psychological well being was not going to crumble with the evidence of a different religion.  The only difference is they politely forgo the ham.  But the mere fact of ham did not freak them out. 


 


I think people, even non christians are alot stronger and more capable than our white guilt society likes to make them seem.  They can gracefully handle and even enjoy things like christmas trees, Christmas greetings, ham at the table and even the word CHRISTmas.




 


Wow, I must have imagined all of those times I had been told how filthy the pig was and that anyone who eats pork defiles their body...


 


But it seems that asking for people to act with common sense and maturity is simply too much to ask for when it comes to justifying putting religious symbols within the confines of a multi-cultural secular forum unrelated to any religious activity.


 


BTW, I knew the yearly whine about how Christmas was being destroyed by the secular government and their evil minions would start about now. How is it that this is sooooooooo predictable, year after year, yet Christmas still occurs? Perhaps those with the complaints should watch The Grinch Who Stole Christmas for a clue.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 10:26AM #45
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

But it seems that asking for people to act with common sense and maturity is simply too much to ask for when it comes to justifying putting religious symbols within the confines of a multi-cultural secular forum unrelated to any religious activity.




BTW, I knew the yearly whine about how Christmas was being destroyed by the secular government and their evil minions would start about now. How is it that this is sooooooooo predictable, year after year, yet Christmas still occurs? Perhaps those with the complaints should watch The Grinch Who Stole Christmas for a clue.


 


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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 10:31AM #46
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,034

Dec 8, 2009 -- 9:44PM, Amin21 wrote:


***inclusive?  Inclusive is being INCLUDED.***


yes and not having christmas stuff at an international conference says: all are included rather than... watch us celebrate...


*** We are basicaly saying you are TOO WEAK to be included.***


No non-Christian would EVER think that way about this...


***You are too crazy to be included.***


again it is a gesture of respect.


***You need to be EXcluded because you can't handle the NORMAL hospitality.***


I have no idea where you are coming up with this from...


***It is normal to have christmas trees but you can't handle it, you are too weak so we are going to keep that separated from you.  For your own good.***


I really don't get that...


again... you are not looking at it from the same perspective as a non-christian would...I see this from Muslims on non-muslims too... no big deal right?  "we don't insult their prophets... why do Christians insult ours?" kind of thing...


How about this... if you were a Hindu how would you feel about them celebrating eid in your face?  If you were in UAE you might grin and bear it... but you would consider it rude.... you might see it as just another example of Muslims shoving their proselytizing and innately internalized belief in their own "superiority" in your face..


after centuries of Muslim and Christian coloninization and the accompanying religions shoved in their faces many cultures are not particularly friendly to Christianity or Islam...




I don't think that banning Christmas trees at the summit is anti-Christian at all although I do think it's kind of silly.  As someone whose only been a Christian for 4 years, I can honestly say, that like AS, Christmas decorations or well-wishes or celebrations in the offices I worked at never bothered me.  It's sweet and a reminder that at Christmas people tend to be a little nicer and little more giving.  When I went to meetings where there were prayers, I was never offended, I quietly bowed my head while they prayed and let them say their amens.  In fact, several of my co-workers and I went to a health care debate yesterday where they opened with prayer, my Muslim co-worker quietly bowed her head and waited for the prayer to be over. She was not offended by the act (I asked) and isn't offended by Christmas displays.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 10:45AM #47
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

The silliness is manifested by those who are offended by this --- the silliness comes from those who are shreiking about how "anti-Christian" it is for a host nation that is cognizant enough to recognize that a meeting held for WORLD LEADERS should be staged as a NEUTRAL playing ground.


Should  Copenhagen have consulted the Pope, the TeeVEE televangelists and asked for their permission? Or maybe  they should have set the date in January 2010 to prevent all the handwringing and perceived offense?

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 11:53AM #48
Lonesentinel
Posts: 2,423

Dec 9, 2009 -- 10:45AM, Agnosticspirit wrote:


The silliness is manifested by those who are offended by this --- the silliness comes from those who are shreiking about how "anti-Christian" it is for a host nation that is cognizant enough to recognize that a meeting held for WORLD LEADERS should be staged as a NEUTRAL playing ground.


Should Copenhagen have consulted the Pope, the TeeVEE televangelists and asked for their permission? Or maybe they should have set the date in January 2010 to prevent all the handwringing and perceived offense?





I agree.  But I also think that if Denmark usually has more festive *whatever* when something international political event does not come to town, it is also rediculous to curb those parts of its culture/identity.  But if it is important to the Danes that they do so, so be it...*shrug*

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 1:02PM #49
Erey
Posts: 18,368

Dec 9, 2009 -- 10:08AM, Tolerant Sis wrote:


When you go to a business conference around easter, do you expect that there will be bunnies and eggs around the place? When you attend a business event in December in the United States, are you so terribly terribly offended if they don't have a fully decorated tree and Rudolph winking his nose above the white board?


For crissakes, this is an international conference on global climate change.  It's not a children's holiday party.  Grow up!


 




Different companies do things differently. Some companies NEVER aknowledge Christmas.


But to TAKE AWAY what you have always done - even when that thing is as inocuous as a flipping christmas tree because you are worried about offending someone - then I think you are stupidly misguided.  Further, I think you are insulting to people.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 1:06PM #50
Erey
Posts: 18,368

Dec 9, 2009 -- 10:09AM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


Dec 9, 2009 -- 12:05AM, Erey wrote:


Dec 8, 2009 -- 9:45PM, Amin21 wrote:


ever been colonized or dominated by a Muslim empire... some Christians from the world accept it... others feel it is thrust upon them


an Arab Christian might well feel a little relief at not having a celebration forced on him...


you don't care if Egyptians celebrate Eid because it seems like a quaint little tradition... the unfamiliar...




It is not a matter of being forced to celebrate.  Even christians are not forced to celebrate christmas.  But this bizzare idea that people are uncomfortable with any evidence that there are other religions in the world than their own.  That we must hurry, hide the evidence.  We must do things differently because just the fact that a different religion exists is a hostility. 


I am not an arab expert but I have known many in my day - muslim and christian.  The Christian arabs even though they have tension with the muslim arabs are not offended by things like Eid, prayers, etc.  And Muslim arabs have told me they enjoy taking the time to visit the christian friends and neighboors at christmas time.


When I was a student I invited muslims to my family house for christmas.  They were not offended by the whole display nor were they offended by the ham.  Their psychological well being was not going to crumble with the evidence of a different religion.  The only difference is they politely forgo the ham.  But the mere fact of ham did not freak them out. 


 


I think people, even non christians are alot stronger and more capable than our white guilt society likes to make them seem.  They can gracefully handle and even enjoy things like christmas trees, Christmas greetings, ham at the table and even the word CHRISTmas.




 


Wow, I must have imagined all of those times I had been told how filthy the pig was and that anyone who eats pork defiles their body...


 


But it seems that asking for people to act with common sense and maturity is simply too much to ask for when it comes to justifying putting religious symbols within the confines of a multi-cultural secular forum unrelated to any religious activity.


 


BTW, I knew the yearly whine about how Christmas was being destroyed by the secular government and their evil minions would start about now. How is it that this is sooooooooo predictable, year after year, yet Christmas still occurs? Perhaps those with the complaints should watch The Grinch Who Stole Christmas for a clue.




 


You know what - They might never eat a slice of ham - EVER.  But their well being does not crumble if  they see it.  Their spirituality is not threatened by the mere fact that they are in a room with a Christmas tree or a Santa Claus.


They are tougher than that. 


I am not carrying on about destroying Christmas - I am carrying on about stupid white guilt being insulting and condescending to people who might not be christian or white or whatever. 


We have such a low opiinion  of them we have to protect them from out cultural displays.

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