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Switch to Forum Live View Banning Christmas is Anti-Christian
5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:17PM #21
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

America and Denmark... etc are secular countries.


 


not Christian countries.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:20PM #22
Jasr
Posts: 11,264

But this isn't just any tourist going to any country for a visit. This is an international summit. Denmark's job is to provide neutral ground, and minimal distractions, for people of many backgrounds and faiths.


They are not prohibiting the display of religious symbols in all of Copenhagen.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:26PM #23
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Dec 8, 2009 -- 5:20PM, Jasr wrote:


But this isn't just any tourist going to any country for a visit. This is an international summit. Denmark's job is to provide neutral ground, and minimal distractions, for people of many backgrounds and faiths.


They are not prohibiting the display of religious symbols in all of Copenhagen.




They are taking away what would NORMALY be there and has NORMALY been there because of the percieved sensitivities of nonchristians or christmas hating christians - whatever.  They are making a big deal out of the idea that someone might be offended by a symbol of christmas. 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:27PM #24
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Dec 8, 2009 -- 5:17PM, Amin21 wrote:


America and Denmark... etc are secular countries.


 


not Christian countries.




secular CHRISTIAN countries.  They are secular but they have deep and pervasive christian roots.  Ergo the Danes as a culture DO CHRISTMAS - it is something the Danes do.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:29PM #25
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848


secular CHRISTIAN countries.


 


An often shouted, but never proved claim.


In any case, it is an oxymoron.  You can either be secular, or you can be religious (Christian), you cannot be both at the same time.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:37PM #26
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Dec 8, 2009 -- 5:29PM, Christianlib wrote:



secular CHRISTIAN countries.


 


An often shouted, but never proved claim.


In any case, it is an oxymoron.  You can either be secular, or you can be religious (Christian), you cannot be both at the same time.




The danes have a long and pervasive history of celebrating and decorating for christmas.


And they are not exactly secular - I think the Lutheran Church is the official state religion. 


 


How much of a jerk would I be if I went to Turkey and said golly - I thought this was a secular country but look at all these offensive Eid decorations?  I am offended at being reminded that there are people in the world of the muslim faith. 


That is what we are saying people do.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:46PM #27
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

I really don't care one way or another... I don't think it is a big deal either way... except when religious right wing are involved (are the Saudi or Gulf nations even in attendance)


It is the religious activist on either side that is going to make a deal out of it...


We must have or thou shalt not...


but no one is limiting anyones personal right to practice or celebrate... so it is really up to the sponsors to do as they see fit, and as they see necessary to be good hosts... personally I don't care one way or another...


But as far as I am concerned the US and Denmark are secular countries.  If the USA had a christian agenda in its foreign policy I would have a serious problem with that.  It does not.  It has an American agenda.


The populace may be christian... but the government has very little basis in anything related to religion... except the liberalism of the enlightenment which can at best be partly derived/birthed from both Christian and classical pagan ideologies... coupled with a severe hatred for the religious born intersectarian and religious warfare through the centuries... 


As for Denmark being officially luthern... I don't know... but it tries its best to be secular... and is known for hospitality.  Further they do have laws protecting religious practice that are secular.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 5:57PM #28
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Dec 8, 2009 -- 5:46PM, Amin21 wrote:


I really don't care one way or another... I don't think it is a big deal either way... except when religious right wing are involved (are the Saudi or Gulf nations even in attendance)


It is the religious activist on either side that is going to make a deal out of it...


We must have or thou shalt not...


but no one is limiting anyones personal right to practice or celebrate... so it is really up to the sponsors to do as they see fit, and as they see necessary to be good hosts... personally I don't care one way or another...


But as far as I am concerned the US and Denmark are secular countries.  If the USA had a christian agenda in its foreign policy I would have a serious problem with that.  It does not.  It has an American agenda.


The populace may be christian... but the government has very little basis in anything related to religion... except the liberalism of the enlightenment which can at best be partly derived/birthed from both Christian and classical pagan ideologies... coupled with a severe hatred for the religious born of intersectarian and religious warfare through the centuries... 




My issue is not what someone's spirituality may or may not be.


My issue is this idea that people are offended and we must protect them.  Half of the reason for no tree and this venue (which has always had a tree during this time of year) is because nonchristians would be offended.  That is kind of insulting don't you think?


Would they really?  Really?  Are people that offended by a secular display of christianity?  Because if I went to India (secular) I would not be offended by a Diwali decoration.  In fact, I might even enjoy it. 


People don't typicaly crumble and get all bent out of shape by some reminder that a different religion exists in the world.  In fact, many nonchristians in the west are known to deck their halls a little during this time of year.  Christmas does not offend them, they enjoy it - imagine that!


Saying no christmas tree because it would be offensive is the equivalent of saying no viking oriented decorations because the visitors might not have viking heritage.  The visitors KNOW they are going into the land of the vikings and seeing a helmet with horns is not going to offend their persian or Roman or Gaul sensibilities.  They will survive and it will not offend them on any level.  Unless of course the visitors are crazy.


This is what we are saying by going to these lenghts we are saying "some of our visitors are bat-shit crazy and easilyl offended.  Having any representation that they are in a different culture or country is psychologicaly damaging to them.  Therefore we must remove anything that smacks of christianity or christian heritage so they don't suffer a nervous breakdown.  "


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 6:05PM #29
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

***That is kind of insulting don't you think?***


not particularly no...


Like I said I wouldn't care one way or another... 


But find it insulting?  No... not really... Why would I find efforts to be accomadating and inclusive offensive?  Why would I be offended by hospitality and a show of consideration... whether necessary or not?

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 6:17PM #30
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Dec 8, 2009 -- 6:05PM, Amin21 wrote:


***That is kind of insulting don't you think?***


not particularly no...


Like I said I wouldn't care one way or another... 


But find it insulting?  No... not really... Why would I find efforts to be accomadating and inclusive offensive?  Why would I be offended by hospitality and a show of consideration... whether necessary or not?




inclusive?  Inclusive is being INCLUDED.  We are basicaly saying you are TOO WEAK to be included.  You are too crazy to be included.  You need to be EXcluded because you can't handle the NORMAL hospitality.  It is normal to have christmas trees but you can't handle it, you are too weak so we are going to keep that separated from you.  For your own good.

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