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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 3:23PM #201
amcolph
Posts: 16,275

Dec 21, 2009 -- 3:06PM, Armwar wrote:


no, in no way am I lecturing you...I am stating where I come from, upon which my personal political/social/economic positions are based, Jasr---my misgivings about the US in the hands of misguided and totally clueless liberals who emulate Canada and Europe, which I perceive to be decaying, if not decadent, and very undemocratic, drifting once more toward socialistic fascism as economic and social pressures brought on in good part by having the poor of the world rush in, largely to take advantage of largesse, and why not?  I don't blame the immigrants!  not there, not here...





Just be careful.  the lurid picture of 'liberals' you evidently see is painted in great part by persons with a religious and political agenda inimical to your own.

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 3:38PM #202
Armwar
Posts: 12,019

Indeed not...I spent 40 plus yrs as a liberal, as a Unitarian.  I outgrew both.  With a certain IQ, one can understand certain points and be self-satisfied, complacent...especially when continually reinforced by others who are just a bit above normal. When you are blessed with a really big brain, as are those whose names I provided for you, it is easy to continue to question, to allow oneself the true freedom to embrace ideas which may be unpopular with your self-chosen, self-selected peers.  One fundie is the same as another to me, AmColph...left or right.  The agenda is me-ism, not truth...

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 3:40PM #203
Jasr
Posts: 10,282

Dec 21, 2009 -- 3:06PM, Armwar wrote:


no, in no way am I lecturing you...I am stating where I come from, upon which my personal political/social/economic positions are based, Jasr---my misgivings about the US in the hands of misguided and totally clueless liberals who emulate Canada and Europe,




We should be so lucky as to have our leaders emulate Canada, where the banking system is strong, the energy trends to renewable, crime is low, speculation on real estate is very curtailed, everybody has high quality health care (at least in the provinces that have done it right), the immigrants are quite successful, the educational level is high, and the political system is totally democractic. (Were you aware that Canada currently has a duly elected conservative government?)

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 3:43PM #204
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,253

Dec 21, 2009 -- 3:38PM, Armwar wrote:


..... I outgrew both.  With a certain IQ, one can understand certain points and be self-satisfied, complacent...especially when continually reinforced by others who are just a bit above normal. When you are blessed with a really big brain...........it is easy to continue to question, to allow oneself the true freedom to embrace ideas which may be unpopular with your self-chosen, self-selected peers.  One fundie is the same as another to me...left or right.  The agenda is me-ism, not truth...



Very interesting Gail... it's for this reason I OUTGREW Big "L" Libertarianism and have ALWAYS rejected the "Me-tooism" and "MEMEMEMEMEM" of the SAD3C's.


Once I realized that corporatism is just as harmful to small business, original thinking, innovation and creativity as too much government regulation, I took steps to disassociate myself from the Libertarian party and am now a registered Independent. I still embrace many small "l" libertarian ideals --- economic and personal freedoms but I no longer kid myself that ANY of the Big Two parties really stand for EITHER.


--- AS

Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 3:47PM #205
Armwar
Posts: 12,019

I challenge you and you and you to the real freedom of considering all possibilities, not just the ones fed to you which are so very comfortable to you...take a walk on the wild side...as I have...


My family, my boyfriend, my children, my church of origin are all liberal Democrats.  It is with great courage and conviction that I think the unpopular, that I face accusations of being a wingnut, misguided, easily-led, greedy, stupid, or all the other ugly things liberals say to those who dare to have an opinion different from their own.  I have been run out of my church---where you will no longer find any conservatives, and right now, most of my family members won't have anything to do with me due to my conservative beliefs and values.  The "no-talk" rule is in place re politics, as if I might contaminate them with my ugly and ill-founded, misguided ideas.  This is the price I pay for how I see things.  But then, this Christmas,  I am not invited to any family gatherings, nor do I expect any presents, though I gave a bunch to others, and loved doing so...which is ok, because I volunteered to be on-call at the local hospital for four days in a row so the other docs could have a break to be with their families.  and I am getting a divorce...but he is conservative, which didn't make him any nicer of a person, so there is that...


it's kind of complicated...


 

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 3:56PM #206
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,253

A transition from one belief to another is always very difficult... especially if those close to you see this transition as a REJECTION of them.  A few in my family are religious folk, it took them awhile to accept my atheism as part and parcel of who I am.... It's not as if I took the opportunity to mock them at every turn, because I didn't.... but if conversation turned to religion/ethics and morality, then yes.... I did find it necessary to clarify that I'm the person I've always been..... they know I've always had a very high standard of morality... before they were able to accept that my rejection of religion wasn't a rejection of THEM.


So too with politics... we closely hold onto our beliefs... my shift from Big L to little l libertarianism has been a gradual one. To this day, however, I refuse to accuse all Conservatives of this and all LIberals of that,  however... and if this is what happens around the dinner table... these broad brush assumptions, then I can understand why family and friends may have trouble accepting the differences.

Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 4:13PM #207
Armwar
Posts: 12,019

Then please be aware that I personally am highly insulted by the term neocon as I know it to be anti-Semitic...meaning those Jews who want to take over the world...

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 4:22PM #208
Tolerant Sis
Posts: 4,201

If you disagree with the Born Again Bush and the Methodist Dick Cheney you're an antisemite? How does that work?


 

First amendment fan since 1793.
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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 4:24PM #209
Jasr
Posts: 10,282

Dec 21, 2009 -- 4:13PM, Armwar wrote:


Then please be aware that I personally am highly insulted by the term neocon as I know it to be anti-Semitic...meaning those Jews who want to take over the world...




This is an invention of the right to put the neoconservatives' critics on the defensive.


It's not working.

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2009 - 4:37PM #210
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,048

Dec 21, 2009 -- 4:24PM, Jasr wrote:


Dec 21, 2009 -- 4:13PM, Armwar wrote:


Then please be aware that I personally am highly insulted by the term neocon as I know it to be anti-Semitic...meaning those Jews who want to take over the world...




This is an invention of the right to put the neoconservatives' critics on the defensive.


It's not working.




So, when Wm. Kristol (R.I.P.) wrote of his neoconservative views in the 1979 article "Confessions of a True, Self-Confessed 'Neoconservative.'--and who just happened to be Jewish, he was being anti-Semitic?

 -- >> Is there something of the logic of Wingnutery that is not clear to me, here? 

*******

"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore."
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