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Switch to Forum Live View Swiss Vote to Ban Construction of Minarets: Your Thoughts?
8 years ago  ::  Dec 14, 2009 - 6:16PM #221
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Dec 14, 2009 -- 3:58PM, Idbc wrote:

The only thing that banning minarets will do is stop the building of minarets.  It will do nothing whatsoever to stop the spread of Islam in Switzerland.  If they wanted to stop the spread of Islam in Switzerland they would prevent more Muslims from immigrating to Islam.



All the more reason to claim the vote was based on bigotry/prejudice.


Bigotry and prejuidice are synomns.  They are words that are similar but not  identical.



For all practical purposes the two words are the same. The difference is not enough difference to form an argument.


I disagree.  ....



That's your prerogative. I've stated my arguments enough so that you have seen them and understood them by now. I'm not going to repeat them again. Sorry.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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8 years ago  ::  Dec 14, 2009 - 6:33PM #222
rangerken
Posts: 16,967

Limiting immigration by Muslims is precisely what European countries have started to do. Every country has the right to decide who gets to come into it, and who gets to be a citizen, and what the responsibilities of citizenship are. The one thing that is open to external adjudication is the grounds for the revocation of citizenship. This is due to what Germany did to its Jewish citizens in the nineteen thirties. BUT, who gets to immigrate, and what the requirements are to become a citizen, and what citizens are expected and required to do are entirely up to each nation... as they should be.


Again, this minaret thing is a symptom and a symbol of something larger, and that something is the fault of first those Muslims who choose not to become 'European' and second, those European governments who do not insist that ALL immigrants first and foremost become citizens of their CHOSEN new countries who just happen to be members of whatever religion, or none, they do or do not believe in.


You choose to call it bigotry, Mountainman. I call it anti religious fanatic common sense. That those who by their own actions have become the targets for such action happen to be muslims is incidental. If they were followers of the Great Pumpkin the principal would be the same.


Ken.

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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8 years ago  ::  Dec 14, 2009 - 7:05PM #223
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Dec 14, 2009 -- 6:33PM, rangerken wrote:

...You choose to call it bigotry, Mountainman. ..



It's not my choice. I can only call it what it is. None of your excuses for their bigotry are going to change the fact that the vote was based on bigotry.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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8 years ago  ::  Dec 15, 2009 - 2:03PM #224
Idbc
Posts: 4,647

Howdy MM


Dec 14, 2009 -- 6:16PM, mountain_man wrote:


  


All the more reason to claim the vote was based on bigotry/prejudice.


I do not agree that the vote was base on bigotry.


 I would agree that it was based on prejudice. 


 


Bigotry and prejuidice are synomns.  They are words that are similar but not identical.


 


Dec 14, 2009 -- 6:16PM, mountain_man wrote:


For all practical purposes the two words are the same. The difference is not enough difference to form an argument.


 


I am drunk and driving a car and as a result I kill someone.   That would be manslaughter. 


I am perfectly sober and delibrately drive my car at someone and kill them.  That would be murder


I am driving a car, the breaks fail and I hit a person who is killed.  That is an accident. 


For all practical purpose it doesn't matter.  The person is dead. 


 


Dec 14, 2009 -- 6:16PM, mountain_man wrote:

That's your prerogative. I've stated my arguments enough so that you have seen them and understood them by now. I'm not going to repeat them again. Sorry.



But I have given reasons and examples to support my arguments as to  why I think there is a difference.  You have not.   



For all practical reasons we both agree that the vote was based on predjuice/bigotry.


For all impractical reasons we both disagree on semantics/rhetoric. 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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8 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2009 - 11:05AM #225
Merope
Posts: 14,591

This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone.


While a relaxed ROC standard is in effect on that forum, the tighter forum-wide ROC standard -- and all local guidelines for this forum -- apply to this discussion from this point forward.



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8 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2009 - 10:40PM #226
rangerken
Posts: 16,967

Here is an excellent article about why Muslims are the cause of their own problems in Europe, and elsewhere...and how some Muslims (HURRAH!!!) are fighting to overcome what is holding them back.


pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2009/12/...


The minaret ban is entirely understandable. Such actions are the only way Europeans can make their opinions herd as long as their governments refuse to insist that all immigrants, SPECIFICALY MUSLIMS BUT NOT LIMITED TO THEM, DECIDE TO BECOME FIRST AND FOREMOST European (whatever the particular country may be of course) and then, by actions, not words, demonstrate that they really mean it.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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8 years ago  ::  Dec 26, 2009 - 4:39PM #227
KindredSai
Posts: 7,425

Limiting immigration by Muslims is precisely what European countries have started to do.


They haven't. No evidence to suggest that at all.


Most European nations have an appauling immigration policy in which they don't have an annual cap on immigration, so they don't know how many people are entering and how many people are leaving.


That being said specifically Islamic immigration isn't as massive in Europe as many cynics make out, the fears of Islamification are greatly hyped to generate a fear amongst white non-Muslim Europeans. In fact most immigrants are coming from all over the EU from non-Muslim countries.

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