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Switch to Forum Live View Obama: U.S. Not A Christian Nation
9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 3:08PM #11
Summer813
Posts: 325

Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:

We all know this is not a theocracy, that we have freedom of religion. That is as the long as the majority is christian when that changes things will change IMO.



Are you seriously saying that you see something in the US Constitution (our governing legal document) that states that we have freedom of religion, but only if most people are Christian? The complete illogic of such a statement aside, what do you see occurring in our government if the majority of Americans were at some point to publicly identify as other than Christian?


(BTW, what's with all the bold text?)

Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 3:28PM #12
TPaine
Posts: 10,308

Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


"they were much closer to being Deists." That is a problem? If they are not against us they are for us! (:



Most Deists were not exactly for you. For instance, Thomas Paine wrote in Part II of the Age of Reason:

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter."



Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


Majority Christian. check



So what? The majority has no right to trample over the rights of the minority.


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


Viewed by many in the world as Christian. Check.



Also viewed as imperialistic, racist, overtly agressive, and domineering. Is all that supposed to be a positive?


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


Manifest Destiny. Check.



I see, this has to be an exercise in sarcasm.


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


May flower compact. check.



You realize that colony failed and had to merge with the neighboring theocracy, don't you?


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


DOI. Check.



There's not one mention of Jesus or Christianity in the Declaration, and Jefferson's mention of the Creator is speaking of the Deist God.


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


Money. Check.



Putting In God We Trust on coins first started during the Civil War. It was first mandated on all US money in 1955 during the McCarthy era to differentiate the United States from "godless communism." That was also the era during which people's lives and careers were destroyed by nothing more than rumor, innuendo, and annonymous accusation. However, the statement In God We Trust is not specifically Christian and could apply to many religions.


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


Pledge. Check.



See as above


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


Court system. Check.



Again, there is nothing specifically Christan about the court system.


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


Now when Obama said "that" my Pastor said different and I paraphrase "Babylon has fallen"



And the rest of the sentence is? There is no requirement that any federal office holder believe any any religious sect, or any religion at all. Whether you like it or not, the Constitution makes it quite clear in Article VI Paragraph 3

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.(emphisis added)



Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


PS-Lets get morality and the Bible back in the class room where it belongs. The 10 commandments is a good start.



Which 10 Commandments shall we use, the version found at Exodus 20: 2-17, Deuteronomy 5:6–21, or Exodus 34:11–27? And which translation should we use, the King James. Revised Standard, New American Standard, New International or the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition? Or should we add some ancient laws or moral codes that predated and influenced the 10 Commandments (1513 BCE) such as the Code of Urukagina 2360 BCE, the Code of Ur-Nammu 2050 BCE, the Code of Hammurabi 1760 BCE, or the Egyptian Book of the Dead 1600 BCE?

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture."-- Thomas Paine: The Crisis No. V (March 21, 1778)
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 3:42PM #13
Summer813
Posts: 325

Note to all: if this goes on to be nothing more than a rehash of several older threads in this forum covering the same material, expect possible pruning to occur.


This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighborhood community host.


-Summer813

Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 4:00PM #14
Nepenthe
Posts: 2,836

I agree, we need to bring the bible back into classrooms, and instruct our students in the way of Jesus.


 


Also, we don't need no stinking due process, police should be allowed to enter our homes at any time without a warrant.


 


Oh, and please take away the right for women to vote, the country went to hell-in-a-hand basket after that amendment.

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 4:17PM #15
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

Sep 21, 2009 -- 3:08PM, Summer813 wrote:


Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:

We all know this is not a theocracy, that we have freedom of religion. That is as the long as the majority is christian when that changes things will change IMO.



Are you seriously saying that you see something in the US Constitution (our governing legal document) that states that we have freedom of religion, but only if most people are Christian? The complete illogic of such a statement aside, what do you see occurring in our government if the majority of Americans were at some point to publicly identify as other than Christian?


(BTW, what's with all the bold text?)




Hello, well since Pain brought up Muslims lets take that for example.


If the majority of this country became Muslim, the majority in congress, in the senate and in the population, I do not think we would have the country we have today, it would be different, (NOTE I AM NOT SAYING THIS AS A SLAM). The people would then have a morality and view reflecting that system hence vote in laws on that system and so on.


So I say that we have what we have now BECAUSE we are Christian with that view and philosophy.

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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 4:23PM #16
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

Paine (in the hiney) hehe just kidding.


I see you over looked this statement I made


"The treaty was ratified unanimously by the Senate (which was only the 3rd recorded unanimous vote out of 339 taken) and publish in both New York and Philadelphia newspapers with no evidence of public dissent.


Dated. Do you standby this statement?


 


"in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen;""


I thought I would repost to help you out.


Cheers,


Vis.

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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 4:23PM #17
TPaine
Posts: 10,308

Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:


Again I am not saying everyone has to be a fundy, his God sounds like God to me.



Are you now implying that all who believe in God are Christians? That would be a ludicrous assertion. I'll quote Jefferson, a man who took his razor to the New Testament and cut out all references to the miracles or divinity of Jesus (see the Jefferson Bible), again:

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1810.



Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:


Dated. Do you standby this statement?


"in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen;"



Obviously it was dated, intentionally. I posted it to show that the Founding Fathers, including John Adams, did not believe that the United States was a Christian Nation. Using a modern day quote would not have done so.


Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:


We all know this is not a theocracy, that we have freedom of religion. That is as the long as the majority is christian when that changes things will change IMO.



And would you please explain who will change things? We have a pluralistic society now, and the Christians can't stand that fact. They constantly try to impose their rules and morality on everyone else. You were the one that the 10 Commandments be posted in classrooms despite the fact that the first four are purely sectarian and have absolutely no secular value.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture."-- Thomas Paine: The Crisis No. V (March 21, 1778)
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 4:24PM #18
dblad
Posts: 1,881

"Concerning the Ten Commandments in courthouses and legislatures: You cannot post 'Thou Shalt Not Steal,' 'Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery,' and 'Thou Shall Not Lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians...It creates a hostile work environment." Source: Email

The Torah records that God gave the Decalogue to Moses on Mount Sinai, inscribed on stone tablets, and intended for the guidance of the ancient Hebrews. They form a small but vital part of the total of 623 laws in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Ten Commandments are a brief summary of certain basic rules of behavior. They do not specifically address some of the most active of today's moral controversies, such as abortion, corporal punishment of children, the death penalty, equal rights for homosexuals, same-sex marriage, physician assisted suicide, pre-marital sex, etc.



Depending upon how Ten Commandments are interpreted, the Exodus 20 version contain a total of 19 to 25 separate instructions. These have been traditionally sorted into ten groups. Unfortunately, various faith groups sort them differently. This makes inter-faith dialog very difficult at times, and can cause conflicts over which version of the Decalogue is to be displayed.   


The prohibition against "any graven image, or any likeness of any thing...," if interpreted literally, would seem to forbid a wide range of objects, including a statue in a church, a cross, a crucifix, or even to a photograph of a person. However, many denominations do not interpret this passage in isolation or do not interpret it literally. This allows Eastern Orthodox churches to display icons, Roman Catholic churches to contains statues,  and many Protestant churches to contain drawings and/or photographs.



Reserving the Sabbath (Saturday) as a day of rest. The vast majority of churches have their main services on Sunday. Only Sabbaterian denominations, like the Seventh Day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists, follow celebrate on Saturday.


The U.S. Supreme Court has interpreted the Constitution as requiring a complete separation of church and state.


 
The first commandment requires that no god other than Yahweh is to be worshipped. This is in open conflict with the "first freedom" in the U.S.  -- religious freedom.



The second commandment, interpreted literally, punishes a man's children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren and perhaps even great-great grandchildren if the man has sinned by serving other Gods.

The fifth commandment requires that children honor their parents. Many would feel that it is unreasonable to expect a child to honor a parent who was a sexual molester, a physical abuser or was guilty of neglect. Drug dealers and prostitutes also have children.



There are two problems associated with the tenth commandment: It treats women as pieces of property
It condones slavery. The terms "manservant" and "maidservant" in the King James Version of the Bible refer to male and female slaves.


 Source: www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10ci.htm


  If you think we have problems now, just try to force your view of religion on everyone else... then you would have something to really BOLD!   



 

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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 4:26PM #19
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

Sep 21, 2009 -- 3:42PM, Summer813 wrote:


Note to all: if this goes on to be nothing more than a rehash of several older threads in this forum covering the same material, expect possible pruning to occur.


This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighborhood community host.


-Summer813




Translation:


Big brother is watching and if you are not minding yourself the "thought" police may pay you a visit. Our "Brave new World" most continue towards its dis-topia I mean utopia!


Well that may be a little over the top..


But I am just saying!


(:


Fair and Balanced the no spin zone is what we want (:

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9 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 4:30PM #20
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

Sep 21, 2009 -- 4:23PM, TPaine wrote:


Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:


Again I am not saying everyone has to be a fundy, his God sounds like God to me.



Are you now implying that all who believe in God are Christians? That would be a ludicrous assertion. I'll quote Jefferson, a man who took his razor to the New Testament and cut out all references to the miracles or divinity of Jesus (see the Jefferson Bible), again:

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1810.



Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:


Dated. Do you standby this statement?


"in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen;"



Obviously it was dated, intentionally. I posted it to show that the Founding Fathers, including John Adams, did not believe that the United States was a Christian Nation. Using a modern day quote would not have done so.


Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:29PM, Vistronic wrote:


We all know this is not a theocracy, that we have freedom of religion. That is as the long as the majority is christian when that changes things will change IMO.



And would you please explain who will change things? We have a pluralistic society now, and the Christians can't stand that fact. They constantly try to impose their rules and morality on everyone else. You were the one that the 10 Commandments be posted in classrooms despite the fact that the first four are purely sectarian and have absolutely no secular value.




See post #15


Vis.

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