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Switch to Forum Live View Obama: U.S. Not A Christian Nation
5 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2009 - 11:58PM #1
Vistronic
Posts: 1,830

"One of the great strengths of the United States," the President said, "is ... we have a very large Christian population -- we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values." -Obama


Rather a narrow interpretation IMO.


"John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts."


He sees behind the curtain.


Vis.


 


Also for those wondering about another point of view...


*Link 1


"TRANSMUTING LEAD INTO GOLD: 


The Hermetic Origins of the United States of America


 


By Joseph Edwards VIII


 


It is often said that America was founded on Christian principles. But was it? Certainly, the Puritan pilgrims sought to live by their religious principles, as did the French and Spanish colonists. Yet other forces – religious, philosophical, political or economic – were also at work among the populace. It is common knowledge, for example, that the U.S. Constitution incorporated ideas drawn from the Iroquois constitution. “The Gayanashagowa, or 'oral' constitution of the Iroquois nation, has been estimated to date from between 1090 and 1150, and is also thought by some to have provided a partial inspiration for the US Constitution.”


 



 

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 12:51AM #2
Summer813
Posts: 325

Not this again, please.

Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 8:58AM #3
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

vis,


This is NOT rocket science. Follow:


1. The founding fathers were nominally Christians (virtually everyone was) but in terms of their actual beliefs, they were much closer to being Deists.


2. The principles and values that led to the formation of this country and the crafting of our Constitution reflect the ideas of the Age of Reason, not the Dark Ages of religious superstition.


3. America IS a secular nation. That simply means that we are NOT a theocracy. And secular does NOT mean atheist. I am a secularist in that I will fight any attempt to turn America into a Taliban-like Christian theocracy. But I am not an atheist.


4. The fact that most Americans identify themselves as Christian does not make America a "Christian nation."


These are simple facts. Repeat them three times a day for two weeks. You'll feel better afterward. Guaranteed.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 1:26PM #4
Vistronic
Posts: 1,830

"they were much closer to being Deists." That is a problem? If they are not against us they are for us! (:


Culture Christian. check


Majority Christian. check


Viewed by many in the world as Christian. Check.


Manifest Destiny. Check.


May flower compact. check.


DOI. Check.


Money. Check.


Pledge. Check.


Court system. Check.


 


Now when Obama said "that" my Pastor said different and I paraphrase "Babylon has fallen"


PS-Lets get morality and the Bible back in the class room where it belongs. The 10 commandments is a good start.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 2:03PM #5
amcolph
Posts: 17,468

Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


PS-Lets get morality and the Bible back in the class room where it belongs. The 10 commandments is a good start.




Which Bible?


 


The KJV, no doubt--and Catholics, Orthodox, and all the other kinds of Christians who want no part of your crypto-Protestant civil religion, those of non-Christian faiths and of none,


what of them?

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 2:07PM #6
TPaine
Posts: 9,339

Vis,


I just have a few comments, so as not to drive summer too crazy.


1. The Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson is at best a Unitarian, not a Christian document given Jefferson's aversion to Christianity. Also, it is not a legal document.

"I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian". --Thomas Jefferson (To Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822)



2. John Quincy Adams' father, John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli in 1787 with the following signing statement:

Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.


This treaty included, in the English version written by Joel Barlow, Article XI which stated:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


The treaty was ratified unanimously by the Senate (which was only the 3rd recorded unanimous vote out of 339 taken) and publish in both New York and Philadelphia newspapers with no evidence of public dissent.


3. The Father of the Constitution, James Madison, certainly strongly supported separation of church and state.

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together"-- James Madison (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).


"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" ... James Madison (Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819).


"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity" ... James Madison (Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec 3, 1821)


"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 2:29PM #7
Vistronic
Posts: 1,830

Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:07PM, TPaine wrote:


Vis,


I just have a few comments, so as not to drive summer too crazy.


No need to stop talking about this, It is being preached and taught daily in many churches. So should I just stop talking about it?


1. The Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson is at best a Unitarian, not a Christian document given Jefferson's aversion to Christianity. Also, it is not a legal document.

"I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian". --Thomas Jefferson (To Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822)



Again I am not saying everyone has to be a fundy, his God sounds like God to me.


2. John Quincy Adams' father, John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli in 1787 with the following signing statement:

Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.


This treaty included, in the English version written by Joel Barlow, Article XI which stated:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


The treaty was ratified unanimously by the Senate (which was only the 3rd recorded unanimous vote out of 339 taken) and publish in both New York and Philadelphia newspapers with no evidence of public dissent.


Dated. Do you standby this statement?


"in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen;"


3. The Father of the Constitution, James Madison, certainly strongly supported separation of church and state.

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together"-- James Madison (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).


"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" ... James Madison (Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819).


"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity" ... James Madison (Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec 3, 1821)





We all know this is not a theocracy, that we have freedom of religion. That is as the long as the majority is christian when that changes things will change IMO.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 2:32PM #8
Vistronic
Posts: 1,830

Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:03PM, amcolph wrote:


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


PS-Lets get morality and the Bible back in the class room where it belongs. The 10 commandments is a good start.




Which Bible?


 


The KJV, no doubt--and Catholics, Orthodox, and all the other kinds of Christians who want no part of your crypto-Protestant civil religion, those of non-Christian faiths and of none,


what of them?




KJV is the trusted text in my church. So KJV. What of them? They have there own voice? I am not attacking them.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 2:34PM #9
Vistronic
Posts: 1,830

Sep 21, 2009 -- 12:51AM, Summer813 wrote:


Not this again, please.




Hello Summer long time huh? I know you would rather ignore me but I see no point in dropping this as long as its being taught in church on TV and radio and not in any little amount.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2009 - 2:56PM #10
amcolph
Posts: 17,468

Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:32PM, Vistronic wrote:


Sep 21, 2009 -- 2:03PM, amcolph wrote:


Sep 21, 2009 -- 1:26PM, Vistronic wrote:


PS-Lets get morality and the Bible back in the class room where it belongs. The 10 commandments is a good start.




Which Bible?


 


The KJV, no doubt--and Catholics, Orthodox, and all the other kinds of Christians who want no part of your crypto-Protestant civil religion, those of non-Christian faiths and of none,


what of them?




KJV is the trusted text in my church. So KJV. What of them? They have there own voice? I am not attacking them.




Not attacking them, no. You just want to impose your religious doctrine on their children in public school classrooms.

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